My parents & his parents use choke/ prong collars with their dogs and the bond is very deep with their dogs. I guess I just feel that, personally, using that kind of training with my dog is not right for me or her.

 

No offence because you sound like you just want whats best for the dog but those issues are very easy to fix.
You have a working line dog 99% of trainers dont understand how to work a dog like that. They make up all sorts of nonsense because they dont understand the drives and temperments these dogs have.

If it where me I would not stop using the ball, just get a conflict free out on the dog. Nothing like some good ball drive!
I also have a dog with low threshholds thats easily aroused. Prong used properly has done wonders for her impulse control and achieving compliance. This notion that the prong hypes dogs up is another myth that is commonly spread by the non compulsion crowd.
Your dog sounds like a dog that has a bit of a backbone and some drive. Her behaviors are typical of a puppy that doesnt have a clear system of consequences and rewards. See NILF. Such a dog needs black and white. Your issues will be fixed in no time at all.

Purely positive training might work well for some low drive shelties or labs but thats not what you have by any stretch.

If I where you I wouldnt bother with the Humane Society go to your local IPO club that understands how to properly train a GSD. All JMO.

 

She has actually been doing better with mouthing since we moved to a house in a less urban, dog dense neighborhood with a bigger yard for her to burn off energy, and since we got her a brother to appropriately play with using her mouth. She hasn't mouthed on a walk in a month. Last night she did, but it was because it had been her long day in her crate, she hadn't been out all day, and she didn't want to come in from playing with her brother and instead of putting a leash on or enticing her with her ball I tried to pull her in by her collar. Handler mistake. The local IPO club is two hours away... We joined the German shepherd dog club, but there were too many dogs in the class for her and she just wasn't over her hand shyness enough yet to be able to participate. Also, they used leash corrections and prongs combined with treats. She just couldn't focus. At the class I brought her to at the humane society ( it was a one time recall class) they used clickers and there were fewer dogs to distract her and she LOVED it, did great, was able to focus because of the clicker. They do have agility at the club and I think eventually she might be ready to take some classes there but right now she focuses best with the clicker in my opinion. Thank you for the advice, you are echoing what my husband sometimes says. It drove him nuts when we had a positive only behaviorist come over to help us with the hand shyness and mouthing because he believed that the type of dog she is requires more stern training. Our breeder uses positive training with her dogs and doesn't seem to approve of prongs, so I think it is possible to train this type of dog positively. She trains and titles her dogs in SAR, schutzhund, flyball, etc.

 

I live in Norway and people have stopped using prongs and e collars ages ago. Prongs are banned. Still we have good police and military dogs I believe in positive training, but I have never had a hard dog, so I might change my mind when Mika gets older

 

The dog pictured in this article discussing Norwegian border patrol shows some type of 'hardware' around its neck. It may be a prong or a choke chain, which is just as harmful (if not more) and/or cruel if improperly used.

Further the significance of 'hardware' is a clear indicator that some form of physical non-positive training methods are being used by your military.

Testing 18 months compulsory military service | Barentsobserver

 

As far as I know, prongs are illegal to use by any dog trainer in Norway. But for some reason they are still allowed to sell them. But it's generally seen as abuse here. But this debate is so controversial I don't want to argue. Your dog, your choice. But my opinion and if you choose to care or not is up to you

 

You're missing the point (or deflecting) and it has nothing to do with my dog or your opinion.

You wrote "we still have good police and military dogs" to support your stance.

....and I posted a link to an article showing a Norwegian MILITARY dog with either a prong or choke chain. I'm leaning to it's probably a metal choke chain.

So the point is, you have "good police and military dogs" but according to the evidence I presented they are being trained with choke chains (possibly prongs). That equipment is indicative that YOUR military is using some type of 'correction' based methodology in their training using a metal collar.

This happens often. Prongs may be banned but that does NOT mean your police and military dogs are being trained without equipment that, for practical purposes, utilizes the same methodology you think went extinct upon your country banning prongs.

Further, are you aware if your police or military imports dogs that were already started in countries like Germany? In which case the foundation training was laid with the probability of prongs and other equipment of that nature having been used.

From the article, look at what the leash is attached to:

 

In other words, there's a lot of layers to this onion that you aren't aware of, especially in military applications.

So just don't get too smug about your 'prong ban'.

One thing is for sure, I'd rather people be open and honest about their training methods. I can't imagine top bite sport competitors from Norway are forgoing the use of ecollars or prongs either, they're just using them behind closed doors.

We here in the U.S. need to be vigilant that this sort of false morality doesn't become 'law' here, that's for sure!

 

...and let's hope this Ukraine/Russia deal settles down, getting scary, but if it doesn't it'll be the US 'over there', with guys like David Winners and dogs trained with prongs and such to help, defend and protect.

 

Prongs and e-collars are forbidden in sweden too, and as far as I know plenty of people train without these tools. Chokechains are allowed and of course these may not be nicer to use compared to light pop on a prong. But it´s not like you have to choose between all positive or never some form of correction just because you can´t use these tools, I doubt however a skilled trainer can´t train a dog without the "power" of prong or e-collar and this has much to do how "tough" a dog is. Why else do people get problems with tough dogs even if they are free to use prongs or e-collars? If banning tools is correct can be discussed, I´m not so intressted in that discussion, in the end all tools can be missused and you can´t ban stupidity.

 

Yes and some of the conventional wisdom is that choke chains, misused, can cause more physical damage then a prong.

What you say (in blue) is true - but it also follows then that banning the tools isn't the answer, so why do it?

What it does do, as seen by our Norwegian friend, is lend a sense of false security because the general public perceives the tool as the problem, not the misuse. That is why I called it 'false morality law' because as you rightly point out it's not the tool, it's the human using it.

 

Btw, the important discussion here should be about whether bans like this will make a difference. My premise is they won't because as has been mentioned by others it's not the tool, it's the human that misuses tools and even flat collars can be abusive.

Furthermore the fact that countries/provinces ban prongs but still allow the use of choke chains illustrates two problems 1) it only shifts potential abusive training practices from one tool to another or trainers use the tools behind closed doors. 2) it creates a false perception of where the problem really lies it should be over the top methods (as opposed to the tools) the choke chain will be used instead of the prong.

So what's the point of these laws other then for certain groups to "feel" better but all the while nothing has really changed.

 

So you are saying that people who are too rough with their dogs will always be that way, and banning correction tools will not stop the abuse? On the other hand, there has recently been a cultural shift towards positive dog training and I think these laws on correction tools effect that. There was recently an article I read online about a correction trainer who stopped walking dogs at a humane society because leash corrections are no longer allowed. I will try to find the article. Anyway, disallowing the use of prongs and choke collars as well as ecollars will prevent abusive owners from hurting
dogs. Isn't that a good thing?

 

... The working dog in the photo was wearing a correction collar. It could have been a stock photo.

 

I believe that choke collars are more potentially abusive than prongs.

 

It's a choke chain from what I can see in the photo. It's metal and definately some type of correction collar.

As to the photo it's tagged to a current article and it agrees with what M&M stated, prongs and e collars are banned...not choke chains therefore it's an accurate representation.

Below, that's my understanding as well, but I'm sure there's been abuse with prongs too. Humans can be very cruel critters....

 

The other thing to consider is the fact that humans are a creative bunch. If there's isn't a correction collar in the toolbox, then it's an easy DIY project. Just get a good leather collar and put some screws it it, and voila. This would be such an incredibly ridiculous thing to do, IMO, when you have a perfectly good and safe alternative in the prong. I doubt they're banned because of previous misuse, or else animal cruelty laws would be much stricter - and much better enforced in the first place.

 

True!

I was thinking about it this morning (driving home from tracking practice on this beautiful AM ) .

We don't ban alcohol (any longer!) to stop drunk drivers, what happened to reduce drunk driving was two fold, education AND much harsher fines when caught.

Also, I really think we've got much bigger problems with animals abuse in the form of neglect, beating, breeding irresponsibly and so on that causes much more suffering then people who may be misusing equipment while training. Though it exists, IMO, it's not an epidemic problem like puppy mills and over flowing kill shelters.

The other thing to consider is the fact that humans are a creative bunch. If there's isn't a correction collar in the toolbox, then it's an easy DIY project. Just get a good leather collar and put some screws it it, and voila. This would be such an incredibly ridiculous thing to do, IMO, when you have a perfectly good and safe alternative in the prong. I doubt they're banned because of previous misuse, or else animal cruelty laws would be much stricter - and much better enforced in the first place.

 

Gwenhwyfair, what goes behind close doors we can´t do much about I suppose. You don´t need a collar to inflict serious pain on a dog either, but the law here doesn´t say it´s OK to abuse dogs with chokes or other methods either, what is abuse and serious pain is of course a bit hard to define.

How many "abuse" these tools I don´t know, but of course there are people using all tools in a less "nice" and skilled way if you look around, and as I said the view/culture on treating animals are not the same in every country. The issue people in general seems to have with these tools are probably that we have better methods to train dogs nowadays, so why use tools and harsh methods that was common in former times if you don´t need it, especially for dogs used for fun and sport. I think this is also true for top trainers regardless where you live and what tools you use, the training is more motivational and "smarter" today than it was not so long ago.

 

Bjorn

While some of your points stand on their own, they do not support laws banning prong collars.

They also don't address the positives of prong collars and trainers who have used them successfully with dogs that may have been otherwise deemed unadoptable by PO trainers.

A law (of any kind) should not be put in place banning something unless A) there is significant evidence showing the abusive behavior exists in a large enough sample of instances. B). The law has the potential to really make a difference.

Thus far these prong bans fail both of those tests (and others I mentioned earlier) therefore it's illogical, unnecessary. In the absence of real concrete reasons I ask again, why? Taking a tool away from many to make some people "feel" better or further a particular groups agenda is not acceptable.

We shouldn't ban a tool because it 'looks evil', we shouldn't take it away because a few have been abusive with it.

Makes no sense what so ever and it's limiting many honest good trainers who did not misuse the tool.

How can a law be justified when there's no evidence the item being banned has caused significant suffering?

(Also, to clarify when speaking of culture I'm referring to the US and countries like Norway and Sweden, not Latin, African, or undeveloped areas of the world.)

 

Dogs can very quickly be motivated to escape prong collar or e collar pressure. Plenty of motivation to be had there. Food and play are great too. They can ban them if they want. It wont change anything. You can just do the same stuff with a foot a leg a hand a stick or a slip collar. The people who were ham fisted with the e collars the prongs or whatever will continue to be ham fisted in other ways and thats assuming they dont ignore the bans outright. They could easily make behaviors behind closed doors and maintain them through other means outside of that.

Stupid bans
Uninformed people behind them
Doesnt affect me in the slightest though.

 

Doesn't affect you, yet.

 

Also, regarding the evolution of training, my background is more with horses but what I have observed is cycles. Alexander the Great spoke about horse training where he emphasized what is now called Natural Horsemanship and is largely force free. In more recent history methods had become abusive and even simple tools like ropes used to yank a horse off its feet could be considered abusive 'tools'. No one banned ropes. What happened was some trainers, like Monty Roberts of 'the horse whisperer' fame pushed back on some these extremely harsh methods. So I see it as more of a pendulum swing rather then a linear progression. I also see the PO people proselytizing too much while their dogs drag them off down the path.....

 

Meh, I like to naked train. I live in the south so legislation like that wouldnt pass anyway. Even if it did Id ignore it. Even if I couldnt im not married to any tools so it wouldnt be a big loss anyway.

 

If you have to change up tools you're affected.

If you ignore the ban you're breaking the 'law' and would have to change up where, when you use the tool, you're affected.

I'd rather not have to figure out 'work arounds' to begin with, much more efficient and no one is affected, south, north, east or west to begin with. :shrug:

 

It doesn't effect me and won't but I don't like the premise. The problem I see with dogs the most is lack of training and exercise. If the prong collar is being used to train and otherwise training would not occur, or if the prong collar is used to exercise and stimulate a dog where such exercise would otherwise not occur, than this can, indeed cause more problems.

I will not buy it that prong collars are necessary for any dogs. Humans have brains and they can use them to find ways to train that do not include these tools. That doesn't mean that the tool itself is abusive, and that other methods cannot be worse than what is sometimes done with prongs.

Every training and management tool can and has been abused. I think stronger laws for animal cruelty are much more in need than trying to stymie people from training and exercising their pooches.

And I hate making more laws that won't be enforced. And if people are ticketed, pull energy from going after the true criminals out there to pester people for something so ridiculous, and to put money in the public coffers.

 

Its not like the ecollar prong collar stazi is gonna come knock your door down looking for your dog training equipment.

If they did so much the better. Ill write a dog training book to help people get past it. ill call it The Foot Fist Way.

 

Hey, what can I say I'm an ounce of prevention is a heck-uva lot better then a pound of cure type of person. Just for the pure principle of it stupid laws like this should be stopped in their tracks.

Also I would not assume living in the south is going to protect you from laws like these.

If it's not highly monetized for or against then the loudest group wins.

Its not like the ecollar prong collar stazi is gonna come knock your door down looking for your dog training equipment.

If they did so much the better. Ill write a dog training book to help people get past it. ill call it The Foot Fist Way.

 

Sue, the entire premise is wrong as it assume that prongs are 'more' abusive and being consistently used in an abusive way. Neither holds true because even those who support prong bans admit choke chains and other tools when misused are just as bad.

So if we just stay with that logic, then choke chains, flat collars, fur savers should be banned too. That's ridiculous but that's what happens when a law starts on a false premise (myth) rather then actual facts and reality.

Big fail right out of the gate.

 

You're preaching to the choir, but what are you going to do about it?

 

This is from the link earlier, I think the author does a good job explaining what is going on and why concern is necessary.

BTW- right now it's just that we need to push back against the many incorrect assumptions associated with prongs and bans. I'm not saying we have to march on the State Capitals right now (!). I do think it's time to put a foot down though and not be silent.

I realize there are accomplished trainers who have achieved a great deal with higher drive dogs without using aversive tools. I also am very aware that in the current political climate in dog training, those same trainers would choose to keep their opinions to themselves if they thought that the tools were useful for some dogs or for some goals in training for fear of reprisal both professional and private. The result of this is that the propaganda machine gathers steam virtually unchecked. When we are afraid or reluctant to question the prevailing wisdom whether it makes sense to us or not, we are in very frightening territory indeed. The current call to live in our heads where all things are equal, black and white, instead of the real world where multiple variables create all shades of grey is opening up a huge cavernous gap in dog training.

Pinch me, I’m dreaming…. | Guard Dog Blog

 

Don't worry, the prong collar has a firm hold with trainers in NE Ohio.

My trainer suggests them to lots of people and a good percentage in her classes are trained with prongs. She understands my desire not to use them and leaves me be. (I have my own reasons that have nothing to do with whether or not people abuse them.)

 

I absolutely respect an individual dog owner's choice and if it works great.

I was an anti-prong person until I got my Smitty. I did all the aversive free things the trainer from the rescue told me to do, no dice. I couldn't take him anywhere, he had no recall, dragged me around and practically dislocated my shoulder dashing after squirrels on walks.

It was terrible, he was stuck at home and I was at a total loss. We had no relationship, no bond because he just didn't give a dang for cookies and praise.

Then thanks to training with trainers who were of the "Micheal Ellis" school things really turned around for us.

I find it very disturbing that a tool which ended up helping me and my dog so much would be taken away from other dog owners.

So while I never, never use a prong on our Aussie who is as soft as a marshmallow, on Smitty and Ilda it was tool that helped greatly.

Now I hardly use it....if it's even on them I rarely need to correct.

Don't worry, the prong collar has a firm hold with trainers in NE Ohio.

My trainer suggests them to lots of people and a good percentage in her classes are trained with prongs. She understands my desire not to use them and leaves me be. (I have my own reasons that have nothing to do with whether or not people abuse them.)

 

One must train differently if you are not going to use corrections. One failure you say, is that he had no recall. What does this mean? You called the dog and he wouldn't come? What happened then?

A positive trainer would not use the command unless they were able to enforce the command immediately. So if the dog is in the back yard and you want the dog in, you go and get some cheese, call his name, offer the cheese, or go out and get the dog and bring him in, but you do not command the dog to come. That TEACHES the dog to ignore you.

When the dog is on lead, you get their attention, show the treat and tell them to come, if the dog comes, then you give the treat. If the dog does not immediately start coming, you go to the dog (on lead so he isn't going anywhere else) and you bring the dog where you want the dog to be and then reward.

Positive trainers need to find what motivates a dog. I too had a dog that could care less about treats. I had to work only with praise with her because that worked for her. Other dogs will work for a tug or a special toy. Positive trainers need to be creative sometimes.

There are not that many trainers out there that use no negative markers whatsoever. For some dogs, lack of praise for an action is enough to understand that they did not do whatever right. For some dogs repeating the action again is enough. Negative markers for behavior do not have to be physical to be effective.

A good trainer should have been able to help you work with that dog without a prong. You found a trainer that helped you train the dog with a prong, that's fine. The dog got trained, and you love the dog. But that doesn't mean the dog couldn't have been trained without a prong. Some trainers could have probably screwed up training this dog with a prong.

For some dogs the prong collar can make training an easier task. And some dogs will shut down on a prong collar. Flat collars and martingales normally do not shut dogs down. It is a training collar, and a correction collar. I am not so much against them, I am against the idea that dogs will be dangerous, put down, or unmanageable without them.

 

I dont use prong collars for a more powerful "c word." They are most useful to me as a tool i can use to get subtle and precise behaviors with minimal effort. Do i use them to punish sometimes? Yeah. E collars to me are more useful to provide quick consequences at a distance. If i wanted a more powerful correction i could just use a stick.

 

OMG now we're going to have 'stick bans', thanks a lot.

...and I'm talking about the wooden bits and pieces of tree kind you find.

Not the kind they were talking about 'banning' hits with at the FCI championships!

I dont use prong collars for a more powerful "c word." They are most useful to me as a tool i can use to get subtle and precise behaviors with minimal effort. Do i use them to punish sometimes? Yeah. E collars to me are more useful to provide quick consequences at a distance. If i wanted a more powerful correction i could just use a stick.

 

The Silent Killer:

You see, rewards are used primarily to create new behavior and offer little to no assistance in communicating to a dog that a certain behavior is unacceptable. However, millions of dogs are killed in this country every year because of behaviors that are deemed “unacceptable.” The AF fanatics have made such a roar that the majority of shelters and rescues have adopted an aversive free philosophy within their organizations. Why? Well probably a few reasons. For one, it sounds great on paper to say that you only reward dogs, and never punish with aversives. Secondly, they have drank the kool-aid. The aversive free proponents have created such a buzz, and are so good at promoting their philosophy that they have many people believing that anything can be accomplished with reward based techniques, and that corrections are always bad and will ruin your dog forever. - See more at: Balanced Trainers | A Silent Killer - Balanced Trainers Blog - Balanced Trainers

emphasis above NOT mine

This is a very interesting blog which discusses the hidden and often serious unintended consequences of the attitudes driving 'prong bans'

 

The Silent Killer:

emphasis above NOT mine

This is a very interesting blog which discusses the hidden and often serious unintended consequences of the attitudes driving 'prong bans'

See, now this kind of stuff makes me want to get on the PR bandwagon and ban prongs. It is your worst argument. Positive does not equal permissive and they can definitely provide leadership so that a dog understands what is acceptable behavior and what is not.

This suggests also that dogs that make these mistakes have not been trained with any negative means. That's totally crazy.

The silent killer may be lack of training, or bad training.

The idea that I cannot teach my dogs to stay off the counters or out of the trash or not to bite babies without a prong collar is ludicrous.

 

Here is another bit from the article Sue, did you read it to the end?

Again, I must restate. I have nothing against positive, rewards based dog training (I myself use positive dog training every day, it is a necessary component of a balanced approach), or those who choose the positive approach for themselves. It is the dogmatically Aversive Free mentality that I am speaking against. - See more at: Balanced Trainers | A Silent Killer - Balanced Trainers Blog - Balanced Trainers

(this time, blue emphasis mine)