I see, is it SOP that the dog is always attached to the handler?

 

Most MWDs work on a flexi attached to their kit.

I work on a 30' sometimes, but mostly off leash, out to a couple hundred meters if the situation permits.

David Winners

 

Cool thanks for the info!

 

OMG David, did you say flexi?! What's this world coming to...

 

LOL... It actually works in their system pretty well. It removes the learning curve necessary to develop the ninja skills on a long line and keeps the dog contained while the handler's hands are free. I hate them with a passion though. Ever seen a dog running away from the flexi that is chasing it?

I'll stick to off leash. I just don't want to be 20 feet away when my dog indicates on a 500 pound IED.

David Winners

 

I'm in Quebec( unfortunately) and this poses a huge problem for me.
Lola is great with the prong collar but the complete opposite with her regular collar. She's 70 lbs and I'm 115 lbs ,she also happens to go nuts around other dogs despite the fact that we did tons of socialization early on so there is just no way I would even consider leaving the house with her if she wasn't wearing a prong.
It just so happens that I lost her regular prong collar so I ordered the neck tech collar since the prongs aren't visible.

 

This is just another case of a clueless government bureaucracy that has no real world experience at anything telling others that they know better. We can all relate to this.

Any dog person with common sense knows one good correction is worth a thousand bad ones. The prong collar is the safest most effective tool for the basic and the more advanced training. The e-collar is a fantastic tool with many applications.

While common sense would dictate not using either of these tools on a toy poodle, reality demands it with a high drive working dog.

 

Canada is not a dictatorship therefore it's the people who are pushing these sorts of laws, not the gov't.

We see it here in the US more with BSL which is pushed by clueless constituents at local state level mostly. Just sayin' in order to prevent problems we need to understand THE source of the problem.

 

Canada is not a dictatorship therefore it's the people who are pushing these sorts of laws, not the gov't.

We see it here in the US more with BSL which is pushed by clueless constituents at local state level mostly. Just sayin' in order to prevent problems we need to understand THE source of the problem.

Dictatorship?

The posted link attached below said it was the gov't.

There's been lots of chatter about the news that the Quebec government agency that oversees regulation for the safety and well-being of dogs and cats (MAPAQ) has deemed electronic collars and prong collars "unacceptable" equipment as of 2013. Public reaction was initially mixed: There was some celebrating on one side and some grumbling on the other. Both sides agreed, however, that this was a pretty benign move on the government's part and that basically nothing would change out there in the real world.

?

 

It's certain groups of people pushing for this within Quebec (which is a province not representative of the entire country nor her people).

My point is this specific (not really tied to a monetary driver) is being pushed by certain groups of people within the Quebec community (you know like the PETA types) just as we have some extremists in GA pushing for an all out pitbull ban.

Since prongs nor pitbulls are part of a corporate monetocracy this truly is a populist gone mad type of thing.

The people are pushing the gov't in this case - those who think it's wrong need to push back, not just blame gov't bueacracy.

It's not a case of top down gov't at all, people on the other side of the issue do have some sway if they put their mind to it and petition against the ban.

Dictatorship?

The posted link attached below said it was the gov't.

There's been lots of chatter about the news that the Quebec government agency that oversees regulation for the safety and well-being of dogs and cats (MAPAQ) has deemed electronic collars and prong collars "unacceptable" equipment as of 2013. Public reaction was initially mixed: There was some celebrating on one side and some grumbling on the other. Both sides agreed, however, that this was a pretty benign move on the government's part and that basically nothing would change out there in the real world.

?

 

Speaking of the cause, it's a group of people who are using emotional hot buttons to push their agenda. It's not an agenda based on reason, balance or results oriented analysis. It's an agenda that often (ironically) works against the well being of the dogs.

The only way to stop this is to fight back, in the media and legislatively.

"I also am very aware that in the current political climate in dog training, those same trainers would choose to keep their opinions to themselves if they thought that the tools were useful for some dogs or for some goals in training for fear of reprisal both professional and private. The result of this is that the propaganda machine gathers steam virtually unchecked. When we are afraid or reluctant to question the prevailing wisdom whether it makes sense to us or not, we are in very frightening territory indeed. The current call to live in our heads where all things are equal, black and white, instead of the real world where multiple variables create all shades of grey is opening up a huge cavernous gap in dog training."

Link below:


Pinch me, I’m dreaming…. | Guard Dog Blog

 

....and one more point, if the people who are against this didn't/don't push back hard enough....then they get the legislation/laws/rules that the other group pushed for.

If you don't fight back, you have to deal with the consequences.

Personally if I ever get wind of anything like this coming about in our area I'm going to kick up one heck-uva fuss!!!!

 

I agree with fighting the kooks on every level that drive these sort of things,

but the fact is, only the government can legislate what the kooks want.

They do this to get the kook vote.

 

Usually it's a follow the money scenario if it's 'top down'.

In this case though, it's not really as much about money as the 'kook agenda' in these cases people can fight back even more so. The gov't can also legislate what the balanced, reasonable people want as well.

Let's not make it worse by framing it as some inevitable 'big gov't' thing because often that isn't the case, it frames it as though people are helpless against things like this.

MOST of this type of legislation is being pushed at the local levels and that's where people can make a big difference, if they are willing and care enough to do so.

Like the trainer's blog I posted earlier stated, silence is our worst enemy.

 

Kooks are very loud too - they're 100 times louder than a 'normal' person, so it makes it seem like there's more of them, giving the impression that they're the majority. It's so annoying!

 

Yup. This!

That's why, though I don't like it personally, the way to fight back is to use 'propaganda push back'.

Meaning point out how many dogs are put down that may have been saved if only it had been trained differently. Then show a picture with a heap of dead dogs from a shelter, with a caption like "For some too much kindness kills" or something like that.

"Better to have pinch then be dead."

 

LOL, if only rational discussion would make a dent! Believe me, I've tried. It must be that loud droning going on in their heads or something? They can only change the subject - they'd probably say those dogs were too aggressive and shouldn't be rehomed. .

 

True, those so entrenched in extremes are too emotionally invested to change their minds. It's about which message is going to control the discussion and sway general public opinion. I really don't think that in the US or Canada the PETA types represent the majority of the public.

People will go on what information they have and may be moved by a persuasive counter argument.

 

Urgh kooks are everywhere, I recall a certain poster floating around facebook with an image of shelter dogs, in bold letters it reads, so you want to buy a puppy, which one of these dogs would you like to kill first.
It spread like wildfire among the hardcores. Its disgusting and a great way to turn away future adopters who look at it and go "wow thats disturbing, moving on now"
The problem is all the rational people have better things to do then follow up with what's happening in crazy ville.
I have worked with a women who made a very bold statement about her rather seeing children be put to sleep then dogs, now she has a problem obviously but the scary part is she and others like her exist and when you have numbers you have more power. So, thats what happened here, wrong information in multiple wrong hands,



Sent from Petguide.com Free App

 

Like many things, when in the right hands prongs/e-collars can be useful and life saving. Yes, people misuse them but that doesn't mean that you take the option away from everyone. As long as they are used properly and are not used to abuse so what? It's up to the individual to decide what is a right fit for their dog. Not everyone is on the same path. Personally, I wouldn't use an e-collar on my own dog because I simply don't need to and I don't care for them. I have a really strong relationship with my dog. He looks to me for leadership. Doesn't have any aggression issues and trusts me to protect him. I prefer physical corrections with my hands or a leash but just because I wouldn't use an e-collar myself doesn't mean that I don't want others to use the device if they need to. It's not up to me or anyone else to decide what training methods or what tools someone else should use.

 

Yep pretty much I screwed up with a prong. I was that guy. At some point I noticed that the dogs I had not used a prong on were excellent on leash

So I changed my thinking from "what's wrong with this dog" to ''What am I doing wrong" when I saw a prong used properly on You Tube. Now I train with a regular collar and leash but I also know the problem wasn't the too,l it was the user!:blush:

Now I realized that any tool can be abused. But logical discussion is not what drives most debates.

 

The guillotine was developed as a more humane method of execution. It used to take several wacks to get a head completely off, unless you were more fortunate and could pay extra so that they would sharpen the axe.

Ah well, I could care less about prong collars, but I would be kicking and screaming if they tried to pass such a bill here. There is something to be said about wanting smaller government. We can't afford to get all the meth labs shut down and clean up the heroine problem here, why in the world would we go around ticketing people for the type of dog collar they are using to train their dog?

Do they ban riding crops there? People should go out with their dogs on their flat collars, wherever PETA people and AR people are congregating, and when the dog steps beyond it's allowable HEEL position, a nice solid smack with the riding crop should be given. And when the AR/PETA people complain, say, "well, I can't use a correction collar, but this here crop is perfectly legal."

If someone wants to abuse a dog, they can do so without any specific training tool.

 

@David: I don't know the complete history of dog training, but there is a picture of a barbed collar in Stephanitz' book - looking very similar to the prong collar. I suspect that the prong collar was invented long before dogs were used in police work.

 

I'd like to see it if you can find a link.

I am basing my theory on what was used in the 70s - 80s the Koehler era if you will.

David Winners

 

Also is a check chain a choke? Or a dominant dog collar? If so, honestly I for one prefer a little pinch over suffocation. (I'm not quite at the point where it is needed yet, though I have trouble with Anna's "out")


Sent from Petguide.com Free App

 

David, it's on page 831, fig. 658. It's labelled "Training collar Torquatus" and there's a plug for it on page 833 where it's called a "Forquatus" - unfortunately I don't know which is correct since this is the English translation from the original German.

 

Thanks. I made a note of it. I don't have my copy with me.

I appreciate you looking it up!

David Winners

 

No problem But there's no way I'm bending that binding back to scan it, sorry. I'm sure you understand, lol.

 

Oh yes. Mine was my mother's. I haven't opened it in years.


My history is desperately lacking. I really do need to devote more of my reading time to history and not theory. I'm definitely not a balanced reader.

David Winners

 

So, tyson down graded tonight from prong to the gentle leader. So far I seem to be getting better results with the gentle leader.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App

 

Apparently this law only applies to kennels with over 5 dogs.. Thats what I heard at IPO today from people that know the IPO folks in Quebec..

 

Being from Quebec, I am wondering about this law and if it has actually passed or if it is just in the making. Though it doesn't really affect me, there are so many bigger issues here, it's almost a slap in the face that when they decide to take an interest and action regarding animal welfare laws, it's over something like this. According to MAPAQ's site, prongs and e-collars are now deemed unacceptable, not sure if it's going to be enforced or what, but that is what it says (and with pictures). http://www.mapaq.gouv.qc.ca/fr/Publications/Guide_reglement_chats_chiens.pdf .

Section 26 states that "The animal's collar must not impede breathing or cause pain or injury".

Why are prong and electric collars being singled out? Any collar can cause pain and/or injury when misused, including those that don't seem to cause harm, such as regular flat collars (constant tracheal pressure/choking if dog is pulling) and head halters (risk of cervical injury). My friend used a Halti on his GSD and the dog saw a rabbit and lunged and got it's head whipped back. I really don't trust those things on some dogs, not matter how "safe" and "gentle" people think they are.

I think you need to know your dog and choose tools that work for your dog and your situation, your desired results, etc. If you are unable to make that choice on your own, seek professional help. I have a very soft dog that I would never use a prong on, doesn't mean I think prongs are bad for all dogs. I have a very prey driven dog that I would never put a Halti on, doesn't mean I think Haltis are bad for all dogs.

 

By the skin of our teeth we are training a hard working line with a clicker, treats and a ball. No prong. Can't say she hasn't made it hard, but the deeper bond is worth working without compulsion training.

 

How do you know your bond is deeper? Ill guarentee you if the dog is truly hard your obedience will never be reliable under distraction unless you have that ball..

I think what makes a deep bond is clear communication and expectations from the get go. Dog is feels safe and comfortable knowing what brings success and what brings consequences. Compulsion free training is more to do with the human then the dog imo.

 

This has actually been an ongoing discussion between my husband and I. He comes from a long line of prong collar users who love leerburg. I am more into compulsion free training, love Nicole Wilde and Patricia Mc Connell. We decided to use positive training with her because we dont think she would react well to a prong, because she is easily aroused and has struggled as a teen with impulse control and being over threshold, specifically with mouthing. So far, we have rules and expectations and use time outs and clicker training, firm nos and redirection. With two in the house and a ball possessive girl ( she came to us guarding her ball from humans) we have definitely been struggling a bit switching over to food for rewards instead, because we know she would guard her ball from another dog, and ball is her motivator over food and rest. She was recently trying to play ball on an ice injured paw through the pain. Recently she has been willing to defend her right to play in the backyard longer with mouthing and refusing to come inside. We are working on obedience without ball but I know she will test us. She recently became ready to get into a class at the humane society so i think that having basic obedience there when she is distracted will help. I believe we have a deep bond but don't question the bond different kinds of trainers have with their dogs. I think it is different, but no less, if that makes sense.