[Jax08]

Interesting! Corn Oil (high in linoleic) is good for energy burn and for detection dogs (studies on that one with working dogs) I add grapeseed oil (also high in linoleic but no GMO risk and I use for high temp cooking because it is quite heat stable) in addition to the grapeseed as they can get a little dandruffy even with the high fat formula.

My dogs tend to do better on beef and most dog foods are chicken based. Beef tends to burn cooler than chicken (even though lamb and venison burn hot) I like having three protein sources in the food as well so not jonesing to run away particularly now that they got rid of that flax (which goes rancid very fast - so much that in my house I grind flax seeds in a grinder immediately before I consume them) and dogs get little benefit from ALA in the first place. Rather give the DHA and EPA from a quaility fish oil.

I use grapeseed for cooking. But I never gave it to the dogs because I wasn't sure it wasn't toxic to them.

Yrah...very few dogs can convert ALA. I read a study on the years ago and I think I posted it on Val's board.

 

[Jax08]

Interesting! Corn Oil (high in linoleic) is good for energy burn and for detection dogs (studies on that one with working dogs) I add grapeseed oil (also high in linoleic but no GMO risk and I use for high temp cooking because it is quite heat stable) in addition to the grapeseed as they can get a little dandruffy even with the high fat formula.

My dogs tend to do better on beef and most dog foods are chicken based. Beef tends to burn cooler than chicken (even though lamb and venison burn hot) I like having three protein sources in the food as well so not jonesing to run away particularly now that they got rid of that flax (which goes rancid very fast - so much that in my house I grind flax seeds in a grinder immediately before I consume them) and dogs get little benefit from ALA in the first place. Rather give the DHA and EPA from a quaility fish oil.

I use grapeseed for cooking. But I never gave it to the dogs because I wasn't sure it wasn't toxic to them.

Yrah...very few dogs can convert ALA. I read a study on the years ago and I think I posted it on Val's board.

 

[Keisha1]

I know a lot of people think that Orijen is too expensive but since it is so nutrient dense with real ingredients, you feed so much less and it really does not end up being that much more. They dont have to add a bunch of vitamin supplements that the body doesn’t absorb well because their ingredients are so amazing the food is complete- I swear by Orijen!! And the company and customer service is amazing as well!!

 

[Magwart]

Keisha1, have you been following the changes in Orijen over time? Truth About Pet Food did a really eye-opening piece on it not long ago:
https://truthaboutpetfood.com/is-change-in-pet-food-a-good-thing/

 

[NancyJ]

GrapeSEED oil is not toxic even though the grape skins etc are. It is actually quite a good source of vitamin E.

RE Orijen - I tried this food with my own dogs a few years back and was not pleased with the results and waiting it out did not produce good stools. When they started adding legumes, it reinforced my own concerns........

 

[car2ner]

I wonder about the entire Legume thing. Peanuts are legumes and yet we've been advocating peanutbutter for our dogs as long as I can remember. I was wondering if it were the potatoes in grain-free, which is a nightshade.

 

[Jax08]

GrapeSEED oil is not toxic even though the grape skins etc are. It is actually quite a good source of vitamin E.

........

Great to know! Thankz!

 

[Kazel]

I wonder about the entire Legume thing. Peanuts are legumes and yet we've been advocating peanutbutter for our dogs as long as I can remember. I was wondering if it were the potatoes in grain-free, which is a nightshade.

They're saying it may be potatoes and legumes. It could be peas and such have some different things in them than peanuts do. But even if they don't we don't feed the dogs peanut butter for every meal. An occasional treat is different from constantly taking something in at high quantities which is what some of the grain free diets are doing with peas etc.

 

[Jax08]

They are also saying that it may be caused by not feeding the food with the correct calories per cup for the dog so the dog is deficient due to being feed less than the recommended amount. They do not know what is causing the heart issues, only the correlation.

 

[Kazel]

They are also saying that it may be caused by not feeding the food with the correct calories per cup for the dog so the dog is deficient due to being feed less than the recommended amount. They do not know what is causing the heart issues, only the correlation.

I think as of right now they're pretty sure something is blocking taurine absorption. Because the dogs can have adequate taurine but don't absorb any of it. So just supplementing or feeding more doesn't help the dog get better because taurine absorption is actively being blocked. But maybe there are multiple causes resulting in the same condition?

 

[Jax08]

I think as of right now they're pretty sure something is blocking taurine absorption. Because the dogs can have adequate taurine but don't absorb any of it. So just supplementing or feeding more doesn't help the dog get better because taurine absorption is actively being blocked. But maybe there are multiple causes resulting in the same condition?

Do you have documentation of that?

If please post it in the DCM thread so the yopic ofbtjis thread isnt changed . The last official documentation I read had several theories but no answer.

 

[Saco]

I wonder if it is something totally unrelated. Given the breed commonalities I wonder if it's a genetic predisposition, only.

Affluent people tend to feed specialty foods. So far, findings may only prove correlation between being more wealthy, owning a purebred that wealthy people in suburbs tend toward, and feeding "the best" food possible. Perhaps rich golden retriever owners are all buying from somewhat common lines that carry an as yet unknown genetic propensity to DCM.

Just throwing that out there...but I think it could make sense.

 

[Jax08]

I wonder if it is something totally unrelated. Given the breed commonalities I wonder if it's a genetic predisposition, only.

Affluent people tend to feed specialty foods. So far, findings may only prove correlation between being more wealthy, owning a purebred that wealthy people in suburbs tend toward, and feeding "the best" food possible. Perhaps rich golden retriever owners are all buying from somewhat common lines that carry an as yet unknown genetic propensity to DCM.

Just throwing that out there...but I think it could make sense.

I definitely think there is a genetic component.

 

[Kazel]

I wonder if it is something totally unrelated. Given the breed commonalities I wonder if it's a genetic predisposition, only.

Affluent people tend to feed specialty foods. So far, findings may only prove correlation between being more wealthy, owning a purebred that wealthy people in suburbs tend toward, and feeding "the best" food possible. Perhaps rich golden retriever owners are all buying from somewhat common lines that carry an as yet unknown genetic propensity to DCM.

Just throwing that out there...but I think it could make sense.

They have been finding it in mutts and other breeds and diet changes have reversed it.

In the articles I've read they have mentioned that certain breeds may already have issues with taurine and so are more sensitive to foods causing issues with taurine whether it be from not containing enough or whatever is going on. But the emphasis on that is that they are higher risk for developing it and/or maybe just develop it sooner than other dogs would on the same diet but it's still the diet causing issues.

 

[Magwart]

In the articles I've read they have mentioned that certain breeds may already have issues with taurine and so are more sensitive to foods causing issues with taurine whether it be from not containing enough or whatever is going on. But the emphasis on that is that they are higher risk for developing it and/or maybe just develop it sooner than other dogs would on the same diet but it's still the diet causing issues.

Actually, if you read the actual science journal article (as opposed to internet articles putting a spin on it), there is no proof of causation as to any ingredients yet. It's just correlation. And reverse causation and spurious correlation haven't been ruled out yet in the published veterinary research. Confounding variables are also possibly in play.

The UC Davis researchers' article was preliminary and speculative IMHO. They have nothing -- literally nothing -- but correlation and hypothesis. Breed, gut flora, amount fed, and ingredients are all on the table for the researchers, and the best GUESS is it will be some constellation of multiple of these, but it could yet end up being unrelated. The people researching the problem haven't identified causation yet. That hasn't stopped Internet nobodies (and even some vet nutritionists on the payroll of certain food companies) from claiming to know things the UC Davis researchers working on the problem don't actually know though.

Play with the Google doc spreadsheet and control for Goldens to filter them out to see for yourself how complex this is. Some of the remaining mutts are Golden Doodles. Then there's not much left. I found working with the data filters is enormously eye opening.


To put it into perspective as to why diet doesn't necessarily equal across-the-board causation when there are underlying genetics potentially in play, think about Celiac disease. I eat gluten daily. I love bread, and I delight in gluten-containing grains. My genes reflect generations of wheat-eaters in Europe. I digest it well, and it agrees with me. Whole grains with gluten are a staple in my diet -- I'm happy to eat a bowl of cooked wheatberries or bulgur. What makes me thrive though would make someone with Celiac very ill. It's not that wheat bread causes illness uniformly, but rather that some humans can't digest the gluten in it. Same with lactose intolerance. I don't think it would be all that surprising if there's something like that going on in the dog world -- we know they're sometimes pretty individual in the food they do best on, so maybe there's a gene we don't yet know about that is not playing well with some ingredient in kibble in a few of them. All hypothesis....but food for thought!

 

[Jax08]

@Magwart - yup. You read what I read.

 

[Arathorn II]

Can someone give me the TLDR version of this thread? Should I continue using Victor?

 

[Magwart]

LOL, Arathorn -- depends whom you ask:


Version 1: They added more legumes and took critical nutritional info off the website, so they seem to be hiding something; it might kill my dog by giving it a heart disease that the FDA warned about being linked to legumes in dog food; I must find a replacement food without legumes because I don't trust this company any longer.


Version 2: I called and talked to Victor, found out changes were minimal, necessary to appease AAFCO due to a rule change, and the website info will come back in a few weeks after the lab verifies it; nobody's proven any ingredient connection with that FDA warning and I'm not buying into Internet scare mongering until there's solid science supporting it; I still trust them, so I'm going to keep feeding it as long as it keeps agreeing with my dogs.


You must decide for yourself whether it's working for your dog, where you fall on the legume controversy, and how it works for your dog. Reasonable people here are coming to different conclusions.

 

[NancyJ]

LOL, Arathorn -- depends whom you ask:


Version 1: They added more legumes and took critical nutritional info off the website, so they seem to be hiding something; it might kill my dog by giving it a heart disease that the FDA warned about being linked to legumes in dog food; I must find a replacement food without legumes because I don't trust this company any longer.


Version 2: I called and talked to Victor, found out changes were minimal, necessary to appease AAFCO due to a rule change, and the website info will come back in a few weeks after the lab verifies it; nobody's proven any ingredient connection with that FDA warning and I'm not buying into Internet scare mongering until there's solid science supporting it; I still trust them, so I'm going to keep feeding it as long as it keeps agreeing with my dogs.


You must decide for yourself whether it's working for your dog, where you fall on the legume controversy, and how it works for your dog. Reasonable people here are coming to different conclusions.

Not all Victor dog food contains legumes to clarify - only the Grain free products.

 

[Jenny720]

My pet feed store still carries the original bag of victor right now so I happy. I noticed even the original fromm bag when they made some changes. They must have huge stock.