[lhczth]

Two excellent posts Cliff.

 

[JeanKBBMMMAAN]

While I will probably never buy a GSD I appreciate this thinking and knowledge Cliff and read these posts to do better and understand more in meeting/fostering rescue dogs.

 

[codmaster]

Samba,
I think you make a good point about many people not being familar with dogs of the past. I realize that the divisions are there and that they will remain. And most of my posts especially in the breeding part of the forum are positioned from a point of view of the"integrity" of the breeders. I don't expect an owner or John Q Public to have the knowledge or the integrity to know WHAT the true breed should be. So my posts really don't pertain to them in most instances. Now BREEDERS......this is a whole nother kennel of fish. To have integrity, to me, they have a responsibility to be knowledgeable about the history and bloodlines of the breed. They have a responsibility to strive to produce dogs that represent this breed standard and legacy regardless of what they LIKE. People who purposely breed litters in which they know that certain components of the rich heritage of this breed will be missing, are detrimental to the breed. Every litter will not possess all dogs that can do police work or therapy work, but the litter should possess dogs that are capable of either depending on whether the puppy is a stronger, sharper, calmer, larger, driven, type of puppy. It is so important that Judges and Breeders are grounded in knowledge, history, and application of this breed to be able to recognize and promote the continuation of the traits that the newer people or John Q Public is not aware of. If the breeders and judges are awash in misinformation, lack of knowledge, and lack of "function", how can they breed for or recognize these traits to reward. In one of the great books of the world it is said " that things will die from a lack of knowledge". Well the legacy and performance of this breed is evolving in this direction and honest folks or KNOWLEDGABLE folks understand this. Let me close by saying that from good GS breeding should come Therapy dogs as well as police dogs as well as family dogs, just depending on which pup it is. Today many people are breeding whole litters that NONE of the dogs can do anything vocationally, that continues the great tradition of this breed.....if that is a strong opinion so be it.

Makes a LOT of sense and well said.

Only thing that I would add is that I would not expect to get dogs suitable for every kind of GSD work from every litter as I am sure the type of dog the parents are would influence that, i.e. from very strong protectioon dogs mated I would expect to get more likely protection dogs than seeing eye or therapy dogs.

 

[gagsd]

Only thing that I would add is that I would not expect to get dogs suitable for every kind of GSD work from every litter as I am sure the type of dog the parents are would influence that, i.e. from very strong protectioon dogs mated I would expect to get more likely protection dogs than seeing eye or therapy dogs.

Actually, I think that IS the goal. Strong protection dogs should ALSO be strong service and therapy dogs. The sound nerve and confidence in one, is the same as needed in the other.
The more dogs from different lines that I am around, the more I am learning to understand this.

 

[codmaster]

Actually, I think that IS the goal. Strong protection dogs should ALSO be strong service and therapy dogs. The sound nerve and confidence in one, is the same as needed in the other.
The more dogs from different lines that I am around, the more I am learning to understand this.

We must disagree on this one as I don't think the characteristics of a seeing eye dog would be the same that I would want in a protection dog. Sound mental capability yes! Quick to react to a "bad" guy, not so much in a therapy/seeing eye dog.

Not likely to get these two in the same dog!

 

[GSD07]

Codemaster, do you mean that the seeing eye dog has to stand and quietly watch how his person is being mugged?

 

[Samba]

I can't imagine an assistance or blind aid dog needing to be without protective instincts or abilities. Unfortunately, we see too few of these solid dogs today and it becomes something people have a hard time conceptualizing now. It used to be the norm for the breed to be able to have its full compliment of capabilities along with its character and strong nerve.

The idea that the two need to be separate speaks to the loss of the breed as it once was.

 

[codmaster]

Codemaster, do you mean that the seeing eye dog has to stand and quietly watch how his person is being mugged?

Did I say that? I would guess if you insist that many would do exactly that.

OTOH, do you want a seeing eye GSD reacting like a trained protection dog if the owner walks near a really weird looking guy who is also acting strangly?

My thought is that a seeing eye or therapy dog must have a great deal less "sharpness" or reactivity threshhold than a protection dog should have. Different degree of traits - not different traits.

How about it - would you want a therapy dog with the exact same temperament as a guard dog? that seems to be what you are saying.

My feeling is that although the same breed can do all of these things - not so for the same individual dog.

Sort of like people - think the same individual could be a star point guard and a center in a basketball game?

 

[codmaster]

....................
The idea that the two need to be separate speaks to the loss of the breed as it once was.

Actually it really speaks to the very wide range of capabuilities in our breed!

 

[Samba]

Of course there are ranges of traits. Unfortunately now there are entire litters lacking many traits.

I can't imagine a GSD not being protective by nature to some degree. Of course, strong nerves are important in the equation and I am afraid too often they are compromised in breeding decisions for venues that do not require them to any great degree.

 

[GSD07]

OTOH, do you want a seeing eye GSD reacting like a trained protection dog if the owner walks near a really weird looking guy who is also acting strangly?

My thought is that a seeing eye or therapy dog must have a great deal less "sharpness" or reactivity threshhold than a protection dog should have.

Based on your statements, you have a strange idea about the temperament and traits of a protection dog.

 

[codmaster]

Based on your statements, you have a strange idea about the temperament and traits of a protection dog.

OR, perhaps, you have a strange idea about the temperament (and job) of a seeing eye dog!

 

[cliffson1]

The last outside dog I bred to (Andy Maly Vah), was a certified Therapy dog and a certified police dog. And an AKC CDX dog as well as a Sch 3 dog. I try to follow the formulas that I preach.....he had outstanding gentleness, fabulous nerve, and hard as a rock when called upon by his handler. These dogs are still out there and they should be utilized more.JMO

 

[codmaster]

The last outside dog I bred to (Andy Maly Vah), was a certified Therapy dog and a certified police dog. And an AKC CDX dog as well as a Sch 3 dog. I try to follow the formulas that I preach.....he had outstanding gentleness, fabulous nerve, and hard as a rock when called upon by his handler. These dogs are still out there and they should be utilized more.JMO

How many dogs have you seen like this one that do all of these things?

I never said that there are NO such dogs - just that we can't expect them just like some people are both a great manager and a great individual technician as well, BUT there are VERY few such individuals. Same with dogs!

When you bred to him I assume that all his puppies were equally skilled and talented as he was, right?

 

[Vandal]

I think the problem is that people don't believe this is possible to have this kind of dog. It is possible and it used to be possible much more often than it is now. IMO, the possibility is less because of the beliefs and the failure to believe by the people breeding. Most do not look hard enough for these types of dogs and others would not recognize them as good dogs because they are too busy looking for "winners". That's the irony, that "the winners" are even known as such. They are only winners in one venue and that was never what a GSD was intended to be. What makes them winners also doesn't have a lot to do with being a great GSD. It is based on a fashion and on qualities that are simply not necessary for any type of work or for living as a family dog. Seeing eye dogs don't need side gait, they don't need a perfect topline but they do need temperament. If they are GSDs , the protective instinct should be "standard equipment". Should not really be a trait that is readily noticeable but in cases where there is a need for it, immediately apparent. Yes, they are still out there, I see them daily actually.

If people bred more to the "naturals" , the ones that make you say, "now that is a German Shepherd", we wouldn't be seeing so many dogs that only resemble a GSD in that they have pointy ears.
It's true about the ignorance of the judges and it is true in the SchH venues as well as the shows etc. Many show judges simply have ignored what they know is the truth and we have seen the result of that behavior, especially in the last ten years. Once again, they are claiming things are going to change but since that has been repeated every year for the last decade or so, I won't be holding my breath. What happens there doesn't have much to do with me and the dogs I work with anyway. I have absolutely no interest in something that has been so damaging to the breed. If I decided to participate, I would be completely outnumbered by the people who possess a totally different mentality about what makes a good GSD. This is happening in SchH as well, which for me, is particularly sad. I think in another ten years, people may understand what I mean by that last sentence. Seems most have been about ten years behind what I have seen coming for the last 35. Most don't want to see it because they are winning at the moment and trying to fix anything just gets in the way of that.

 

[Castlemaid]

Originally Posted by cliffson1
The last outside dog I bred to (Andy Maly Vah), was a certified Therapy dog and a certified police dog. And an AKC CDX dog as well as a Sch 3 dog. I try to follow the formulas that I preach.....he had outstanding gentleness, fabulous nerve, and hard as a rock when called upon by his handler. These dogs are still out there and they should be utilized more.JMO

How many dogs have you seen like this one that do all of these things?
(snip!)
When you bred to him I assume that all his puppies were equally skilled and talented as he was, right?

I have an Andy Maly Vah son, just turned 15 months old, three weeks ago, and had no difficulty in getting his BH. He is very much as Cliff describes the father - though at this age, there is only so much hardness in him. Still very much a puppy trying to be good and not rock the boat too much - but he bites through the sleeve in protection. Our helper has commented that he can see a lot of defense in him, just below the surface, which we are just now starting to bring out.

Yet I trust him around other dogs, in crowds of strangers, I take him to a lot of places and let him be off-leash, he is 100% reliable and has an unbelievable recall. He is sweet and gentle with the cats who seek him out and cuddle up to him.

We did our BH tonight, the judge of course picked apart the whole performance, that is their job, but made special mention of his nice, focused, attentive heeling through the group - made for a very nice picture, he said.
The desire to please and work for the handler is there.

He is still young and developing, but he feels to me like he is steady enough and willing enough that he could do anything: be a service dog, a therapy dog, a sport performance dog, a companion dog, a baby-sitter dog, a Schutzhund dog.

 

[cliffson1]

Anne, thanks for saying diplomatically what I am not as elonquent saying. I figured most people would realize that there are many dogs today that don't have this balance or else we would not be having this dialogue. I also thought most would read between the lines in that there are some dogs out there like that, but people are so intent on trophies, ribbons, and inflating their ego that they DON'T even look to find these dogs to breed to because it won't produce the dog that continues the fads created in the showring and sport field. I think I said people ought to utilize them more SO that the breed could get on track and they wouldn't be difficult to find. (BTW, Castlemaid, Andy has a litter sister to your dog here in South Jersey and this female is in preparation for AKC, Tracking, and Therapy certifications. She has rock solid nerve and is very social, owner doesn't chose to do bitework but is an old AKC GS breed person in show and obedience and has told me that this dog is phenomenal and she can't get a dog like this from lines she used in the past.) Guess she just had dumb luck also! There are good dogs out there that will bring balance back to the breed, but dogs don't set up their own breedings, so its usually the ignorance or the ego that drives breeders today to create the type dogs we see representatively in the breed ring and sport field. And of course where do the Judges come from ......no not lawyers(Got cha!!), but usually successful breeders in the show and sport ring. So it becomes self perpetuating.

 

[thedogbreedexpert]

The GSD has mastered such a wide variety of skills...

We must disagree on this one as I don't think the characteristics of a seeing eye dog would be the same that I would want in a protection dog. Sound mental capability yes! Quick to react to a "bad" guy, not so much in a therapy/seeing eye dog.

Not likely to get these two in the same dog!

codmaster,

actually the main reason why the German Shepherd dog became one of the world's most popular breeds is due to the fact that although some breeds are better at specific tasks, no other breed has mastered such a wide variety of skills. The German Shepherd dog has served as a police dog, war dog, guide dog, search-and-rescue dog, narcotics-or explosives-detecting dog, show dog, guard dog, shepherd and even as a pet. I write about this on my site: The German Shepherd Dog Breed
Check it out when you get a chance.

 

[codmaster]

codmaster,

actually the main reason why the German Shepherd dog became one of the world's most popular breeds is due to the fact that although some breeds are better at specific tasks, no other breed has mastered such a wide variety of skills. The German Shepherd dog has served as a police dog, war dog, guide dog, search-and-rescue dog, narcotics-or explosives-detecting dog, show dog, guard dog, shepherd and even as a pet. I write about this on my site: The German Shepherd Dog Breed
Check it out when you get a chance.

Very true about the GSD breed as a whole but not so much in an individual dog - the requirements are just too different.

Or maybe do you think we could take the German Sieger (or Siegeren) one year (as I think that most people would agree that this dog or bitch should have a mentally sound temperament) and send them right into seeying eye dog training?

Or how about the WDA winner from their annual show.

I really do not believe that this would be a usual (or expected) thing to be able to do. By the same token I don't believe that we could take the herding top dog and make him/her a top notch K9 operative and yet I certainly am in great agreement that the GSD breed can do all of these things very well!

Could a single individual GSD be good at all these things - YES! I believe that you can find a single dog that could do these things; BUT I do not believe that it is or would be expected to think that the average GSD could even be reasonably expected to be good at all these things and more.

Similar - would you expect a single person to be a world class athelete as well as a top scholar? No, but a single rare individual might be able to be both.

 

[Xeph]

would you expect a single person to be a world class athelete as well as a top scholar?

Ummm....lots of college athletes fit both. Many pros did both as well.