[Samba]

I was at our club show this month. The judges asked me what my breed was. When I said German Shepherds, there was much talk of how difficult it is find a "good one".

One time, when asked, I said that I was really loving all that my Catahoula is. A hush fell. The Catahoula people will resist AKC recognition with all they have.

Jimmy and Georgie are still making their way around the ring as handlers these days! I often wonder what people who have seen the decades of change think about it all.

The splits and differences in the breed are significant enough that I am not surprised a provisional judge could be stumped by what different "varieties" of our dogs might bring to the ring. Perhaps we should have "variety" classes!

 

[gagsd]

I had a judge at an AKC show ask me what my dark sable GSD puppy was..... thought he was a Dutchie!!

 

[cliffson1]

How can you be a Judge of the breed but not be knowledgable about History or Work. These observations people are making about certain judges knowledge base outside the ring is nothing new in American show circuit. One thing I can say about every SV Judge I have met is that they know the breed and they also know how to train the breed in obedience/tracking/protection. They usually have knowledge of the history of the breed.
Some of the opinions and misbeliefs that I used to hear from AKC conformation judges was actually appalling. Things like Sch dogs are unsafe and will bite indiscriminately. I mean folks in the country of origin where EVERY GS HAS to have a Sch title to even be bred, if these statements were true you would read about dogbites in Germany 50 times a day. But for a breed JUDGE in America to make these kind of statements is to me the height of ignorance. How could I value an assessment made from a person with this type of limited knowledge of the BREED?????

 

[onyx'girl]

That is why AKC opinion isn't very highly esteemed, IMO.
If I were to show conformation, UKC would be my venue of choice.

 

[Jessiewessie99]

I never understood shows and stuff, all I know is they prance around a ring, because thats all I have seen.lol.

Have GSDs from Working lines ever ended up in show and do really good?

 

[gagsd]

In general, no, they do not do well. I show my puppies at AKC shows and we are always last.
OK, once or twice we placed above another dog, but mostly a working line dog will not do well in the AKC ring.

 

[codmaster]

I had a judge at an AKC show ask me what my dark sable GSD puppy was..... thought he was a Dutchie!!

Was it a GSD speciality show or an all breed show? Makes a very big difference.

I once entered out 9-12 month old puppy in an all breed and had the handler inform us after the class that the judge was afraid of GSD's in general!

 

[codmaster]

I never understood shows and stuff, all I know is they prance around a ring, because thats all I have seen.lol.Have GSDs from Working lines ever ended up in show and do really good?

You should read/study the GSD standard when you get a chance and then you would have a better idea of what the judges are looking for in the ring.

 

[codmaster]

In general, no, they do not do well. I show my puppies at AKC shows and we are always last.
OK, once or twice we placed above another dog, but mostly a working line dog will not do well in the AKC ring.

Many working lines dogs do not conform very well to the standard and to what the judges are looking for. Remember that the breed ring does not allow the working line dogs to show off their increased trainability and their mind which are their biggest assets.

 

[Jessiewessie99]

You should read/study the GSD standard when you get a chance and then you would have a better idea of what the judges are looking for in the ring.

Umm...no. I am not interested in showing. I was just asking because I have heard of showline GSDs doing what working line GSDs do.

 

[cliffson1]

How about this? Many AKC judges don't know or put up dogs that don't conform to the standard. A dog true to the standard will never win in the AKC ring and hasn't for many years. There are no extremes in the STANDARD, so where does the extremes come from in the ring. Extreme sidegait is needed for the dog to herd all day. Another misbelief of many AKC judges to justify putting this type of dog up. Yet if you go into the Bavarian mountains and see real herding GS working...they look nothing like these extreme sidegaiters. So who created this, and more importantly for what use???? Talk to people who breed and show and judge these dogs and you will get some creative answers but none based in reality because in reality these type dogs are ONLY good for the showring and donot work vocationally to any extent. I'm not hating, but merely stating reality.

 

[codmaster]

........... I was just asking because I have heard of showline GSDs doing what working line GSDs do.

Huh?

 

[codmaster]

How about this? Many AKC judges don't know or put up dogs that don't conform to the standard. A dog true to the standard will never win in the AKC ring and hasn't for many years. There are no extremes in the STANDARD, so where does the extremes come from in the ring. Extreme sidegait is needed for the dog to herd all day. Another misbelief of many AKC judges to justify putting this type of dog up. Yet if you go into the Bavarian mountains and see real herding GS working...they look nothing like these extreme sidegaiters. So who created this, and more importantly for what use???? Talk to people who breed and show and judge these dogs and you will get some creative answers but none based in reality because in reality these type dogs are ONLY good for the showring and donot work vocationally to any extent. I'm not hating, but merely stating reality.

If you are that knowledgable about the GSD and the standard and feel that strongly about it, why don't you judge in the ring and help to improve the breed? Or maybe you are a licensed GSD judge already? You certainly seem to have a lot of strong opinion.

I guess that the only place GSD's do real herding work is in the Bavarian mountains? Do these dogs look like the dogs in the US that are being SchH titled as a badge of breeding worthiness?

"Extreme sidegait is needed for the dog to herd all day." -- Interesting statment for one who I thought was against the extreme sidegait of many of the American showlines.

"There are no extremes in the STANDARD" - What exactly do you mean by this statment?

Would you agree that we want a GSD that is good in all aspects of the dog - i.e. physical as well as mental and health?

 

[katieliz]

what an interesting thread and a really interesting interview with jimmy.

 

[Liesje]

I never understood shows and stuff, all I know is they prance around a ring, because thats all I have seen.lol.

Have GSDs from Working lines ever ended up in show and do really good?

Yes!! The last show I was in, a working line male (who was in his FIRST show) won the breed against seasoned German and American show lines. I'd never seen that before, in fact in a show I've been in or attended I've never seen a dog NOT from the champion or grand champion class win the breed, least of all a young working line male. It sucked losing to him b/c all we needed was one more win at the Best Male level to champion but I was thrilled to lose to that dog and see him win the breed.

We also frequently show against a very nice young woman who has working line GSDs. She has an amazing male that has a gazillion titles and is a grand champion. I've seen him win the breed more than once.

My working line female is a champion, spayed about halfway to reaching her grand champion, and I show her in the altered class when available.

Nikon has beaten American show line dogs in the AKC and UKC ring.

I've seen working lines do well in ALL venues I show in and it's a same more aren't presented.

 

[Liesje]

I once entered out 9-12 month old puppy in an all breed and had the handler inform us after the class that the judge was afraid of GSD's in general!

I've had this before too. In WDA the judge himself inspects the bite very closely, even touching the inside of the mouth and teeth. In UKC I've had judges who have me show the bite and won't come within 5 feet of the dog's mouth. I guess it's their prerogative, my dog does not have an absolutely perfect bite but they will never see it if they don't LOOK.

 

[Samba]

After talking with some of the all-breed judges this past weekend. I think that a moderate and correct dog could do well under many of them. They were remarking that it is often hard to find a good one in the shepherd ring.

The Americans and Canadians wrote their own standards. They are not members of the FCI and do not use the standard that much of the world does.

We see even among the Europeans very different looking dogs in separate venues even though they operate under the same standard. Obviously, the standard allows for wide variation in type. Many working line dogs meet the standard and receive an acceptable show rating. Aren't they shown and koerklassed?

I was at a show recently and two ladies were a bit agog on the sideline watching. I could tell by the expression on their face...well. They did approach me as to why the dogs looked the way they did. I explained that the dogs were bred for competition in this ring. They looked even more agog as I think they realized that I had shot them a straight answer. We have niche breeding, surely. I even hear people speaking of all-breed dogs versus specialty dogs within the AKC venues. Again, wide variety under the same standard.

 

[cliffson1]

Codmaster, when I made the comment about "extreme sidegaiting dogs can herd all day", I was using sarcasm. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding because I forget sometimes that people can't hear my thoughts. SO....You are Right about my feelings from past on American sidegait and its usefulness and I STILL maintain that point. As for me becoming a judge and strongly opininionated about the breed, (insert here that I am chuckling), most of my opinions are supported by historical and current development of the breed. Can you tell me where you see extensive use of these extreme sidegaiting dogs being used to work. I well could be missing something. I have owned and showed dogs in the American showring in early seventies, before I left because I couldn't stand to hear the excuses made for the extreme temperament deficiencies and I could see the path and where it would end up.(I don't feel too bad about that call). I have shown Black and Red European dogs in the nineties, again I left because they are going down the same path of genetic bottleneck and little regard for the true strength of the breed. I have also worked the breed a little bit over the years, AKC obedience, military, police, Sch, SDA, and I currently have a 9 month female who is ready for her PT in herding though I won't handle her for this first time. Judgeship????Current SDA judge, also qualified to Judge USPCA events in Region 15 of which I am a member. Actually, those things are not as important to me as being a student of the breed and continuing to push for the total dog that was created to provide service for man.

 

[Samba]

I don't see advocating for the German Shepherd to be bred true to the breed's historical utility and strength of character as highly opinionated or radically biased.

Some people have taken the dog and altered it for niche breeding in many venues. They have lost much of what defined the breed in its beginning. I don't have any trouble seeing that or admitting it.


Unfortunately, I do not have experience with dogs from decades ago. I think the fact that so much has changed and we have such strong advocates of various niches now, that honest communication about the breed sometimes gets difficult.

 

[cliffson1]

Samba,
I think you make a good point about many people not being familar with dogs of the past. I realize that the divisions are there and that they will remain. And most of my posts especially in the breeding part of the forum are positioned from a point of view of the"integrity" of the breeders. I don't expect an owner or John Q Public to have the knowledge or the integrity to know WHAT the true breed should be. So my posts really don't pertain to them in most instances. Now BREEDERS......this is a whole nother kennel of fish. To have integrity, to me, they have a responsibility to be knowledgeable about the history and bloodlines of the breed. They have a responsibility to strive to produce dogs that represent this breed standard and legacy regardless of what they LIKE. People who purposely breed litters in which they know that certain components of the rich heritage of this breed will be missing, are detrimental to the breed. Every litter will not possess all dogs that can do police work or therapy work, but the litter should possess dogs that are capable of either depending on whether the puppy is a stronger, sharper, calmer, larger, driven, type of puppy. It is so important that Judges and Breeders are grounded in knowledge, history, and application of this breed to be able to recognize and promote the continuation of the traits that the newer people or John Q Public is not aware of. If the breeders and judges are awash in misinformation, lack of knowledge, and lack of "function", how can they breed for or recognize these traits to reward. In one of the great books of the world it is said " that things will die from a lack of knowledge". Well the legacy and performance of this breed is evolving in this direction and honest folks or KNOWLEDGABLE folks understand this. Let me close by saying that from good GS breeding should come Therapy dogs as well as police dogs as well as family dogs, just depending on which pup it is. Today many people are breeding whole litters that NONE of the dogs can do anything vocationally, that continues the great tradition of this breed.....if that is a strong opinion so be it.