That is why AKC opinion isn't very highly esteemed, IMO.
If I were to show conformation, UKC would be my venue of choice.

 

I never understood shows and stuff, all I know is they prance around a ring, because thats all I have seen.lol.

Have GSDs from Working lines ever ended up in show and do really good?

 

I never understood shows and stuff, all I know is they prance around a ring, because thats all I have seen.lol.Have GSDs from Working lines ever ended up in show and do really good?

You should read/study the GSD standard when you get a chance and then you would have a better idea of what the judges are looking for in the ring.

 

In general, no, they do not do well. I show my puppies at AKC shows and we are always last.
OK, once or twice we placed above another dog, but mostly a working line dog will not do well in the AKC ring.

 

Many working lines dogs do not conform very well to the standard and to what the judges are looking for. Remember that the breed ring does not allow the working line dogs to show off their increased trainability and their mind which are their biggest assets.

 

How about this? Many AKC judges don't know or put up dogs that don't conform to the standard. A dog true to the standard will never win in the AKC ring and hasn't for many years. There are no extremes in the STANDARD, so where does the extremes come from in the ring. Extreme sidegait is needed for the dog to herd all day. Another misbelief of many AKC judges to justify putting this type of dog up. Yet if you go into the Bavarian mountains and see real herding GS working...they look nothing like these extreme sidegaiters. So who created this, and more importantly for what use???? Talk to people who breed and show and judge these dogs and you will get some creative answers but none based in reality because in reality these type dogs are ONLY good for the showring and donot work vocationally to any extent. I'm not hating, but merely stating reality.

 

If you are that knowledgable about the GSD and the standard and feel that strongly about it, why don't you judge in the ring and help to improve the breed? Or maybe you are a licensed GSD judge already? You certainly seem to have a lot of strong opinion.

I guess that the only place GSD's do real herding work is in the Bavarian mountains? Do these dogs look like the dogs in the US that are being SchH titled as a badge of breeding worthiness?

"Extreme sidegait is needed for the dog to herd all day." -- Interesting statment for one who I thought was against the extreme sidegait of many of the American showlines.

"There are no extremes in the STANDARD" - What exactly do you mean by this statment?

Would you agree that we want a GSD that is good in all aspects of the dog - i.e. physical as well as mental and health?

 

what an interesting thread and a really interesting interview with jimmy.

 

After talking with some of the all-breed judges this past weekend. I think that a moderate and correct dog could do well under many of them. They were remarking that it is often hard to find a good one in the shepherd ring.

The Americans and Canadians wrote their own standards. They are not members of the FCI and do not use the standard that much of the world does.

We see even among the Europeans very different looking dogs in separate venues even though they operate under the same standard. Obviously, the standard allows for wide variation in type. Many working line dogs meet the standard and receive an acceptable show rating. Aren't they shown and koerklassed?

I was at a show recently and two ladies were a bit agog on the sideline watching. I could tell by the expression on their face...well. They did approach me as to why the dogs looked the way they did. I explained that the dogs were bred for competition in this ring. They looked even more agog as I think they realized that I had shot them a straight answer. We have niche breeding, surely. I even hear people speaking of all-breed dogs versus specialty dogs within the AKC venues. Again, wide variety under the same standard.

 

Codmaster, when I made the comment about "extreme sidegaiting dogs can herd all day", I was using sarcasm. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding because I forget sometimes that people can't hear my thoughts. SO....You are Right about my feelings from past on American sidegait and its usefulness and I STILL maintain that point. As for me becoming a judge and strongly opininionated about the breed, (insert here that I am chuckling), most of my opinions are supported by historical and current development of the breed. Can you tell me where you see extensive use of these extreme sidegaiting dogs being used to work. I well could be missing something. I have owned and showed dogs in the American showring in early seventies, before I left because I couldn't stand to hear the excuses made for the extreme temperament deficiencies and I could see the path and where it would end up.(I don't feel too bad about that call). I have shown Black and Red European dogs in the nineties, again I left because they are going down the same path of genetic bottleneck and little regard for the true strength of the breed. I have also worked the breed a little bit over the years, AKC obedience, military, police, Sch, SDA, and I currently have a 9 month female who is ready for her PT in herding though I won't handle her for this first time. Judgeship????Current SDA judge, also qualified to Judge USPCA events in Region 15 of which I am a member. Actually, those things are not as important to me as being a student of the breed and continuing to push for the total dog that was created to provide service for man.

 

I don't see advocating for the German Shepherd to be bred true to the breed's historical utility and strength of character as highly opinionated or radically biased.

Some people have taken the dog and altered it for niche breeding in many venues. They have lost much of what defined the breed in its beginning. I don't have any trouble seeing that or admitting it.


Unfortunately, I do not have experience with dogs from decades ago. I think the fact that so much has changed and we have such strong advocates of various niches now, that honest communication about the breed sometimes gets difficult.

 

Samba,
I think you make a good point about many people not being familar with dogs of the past. I realize that the divisions are there and that they will remain. And most of my posts especially in the breeding part of the forum are positioned from a point of view of the"integrity" of the breeders. I don't expect an owner or John Q Public to have the knowledge or the integrity to know WHAT the true breed should be. So my posts really don't pertain to them in most instances. Now BREEDERS......this is a whole nother kennel of fish. To have integrity, to me, they have a responsibility to be knowledgeable about the history and bloodlines of the breed. They have a responsibility to strive to produce dogs that represent this breed standard and legacy regardless of what they LIKE. People who purposely breed litters in which they know that certain components of the rich heritage of this breed will be missing, are detrimental to the breed. Every litter will not possess all dogs that can do police work or therapy work, but the litter should possess dogs that are capable of either depending on whether the puppy is a stronger, sharper, calmer, larger, driven, type of puppy. It is so important that Judges and Breeders are grounded in knowledge, history, and application of this breed to be able to recognize and promote the continuation of the traits that the newer people or John Q Public is not aware of. If the breeders and judges are awash in misinformation, lack of knowledge, and lack of "function", how can they breed for or recognize these traits to reward. In one of the great books of the world it is said " that things will die from a lack of knowledge". Well the legacy and performance of this breed is evolving in this direction and honest folks or KNOWLEDGABLE folks understand this. Let me close by saying that from good GS breeding should come Therapy dogs as well as police dogs as well as family dogs, just depending on which pup it is. Today many people are breeding whole litters that NONE of the dogs can do anything vocationally, that continues the great tradition of this breed.....if that is a strong opinion so be it.

 

Makes a LOT of sense and well said.

Only thing that I would add is that I would not expect to get dogs suitable for every kind of GSD work from every litter as I am sure the type of dog the parents are would influence that, i.e. from very strong protectioon dogs mated I would expect to get more likely protection dogs than seeing eye or therapy dogs.

 

Two excellent posts Cliff.

 

While I will probably never buy a GSD I appreciate this thinking and knowledge Cliff and read these posts to do better and understand more in meeting/fostering rescue dogs.

 

Codemaster, do you mean that the seeing eye dog has to stand and quietly watch how his person is being mugged?

 

Did I say that? I would guess if you insist that many would do exactly that.

OTOH, do you want a seeing eye GSD reacting like a trained protection dog if the owner walks near a really weird looking guy who is also acting strangly?

My thought is that a seeing eye or therapy dog must have a great deal less "sharpness" or reactivity threshhold than a protection dog should have. Different degree of traits - not different traits.

How about it - would you want a therapy dog with the exact same temperament as a guard dog? that seems to be what you are saying.

My feeling is that although the same breed can do all of these things - not so for the same individual dog.

Sort of like people - think the same individual could be a star point guard and a center in a basketball game?

 

I can't imagine an assistance or blind aid dog needing to be without protective instincts or abilities. Unfortunately, we see too few of these solid dogs today and it becomes something people have a hard time conceptualizing now. It used to be the norm for the breed to be able to have its full compliment of capabilities along with its character and strong nerve.

The idea that the two need to be separate speaks to the loss of the breed as it once was.

 

....................
The idea that the two need to be separate speaks to the loss of the breed as it once was.

Actually it really speaks to the very wide range of capabuilities in our breed!

 

Of course there are ranges of traits. Unfortunately now there are entire litters lacking many traits.

I can't imagine a GSD not being protective by nature to some degree. Of course, strong nerves are important in the equation and I am afraid too often they are compromised in breeding decisions for venues that do not require them to any great degree.

 

The last outside dog I bred to (Andy Maly Vah), was a certified Therapy dog and a certified police dog. And an AKC CDX dog as well as a Sch 3 dog. I try to follow the formulas that I preach.....he had outstanding gentleness, fabulous nerve, and hard as a rock when called upon by his handler. These dogs are still out there and they should be utilized more.JMO

 

How many dogs have you seen like this one that do all of these things?

I never said that there are NO such dogs - just that we can't expect them just like some people are both a great manager and a great individual technician as well, BUT there are VERY few such individuals. Same with dogs!

When you bred to him I assume that all his puppies were equally skilled and talented as he was, right?

 

I think the problem is that people don't believe this is possible to have this kind of dog. It is possible and it used to be possible much more often than it is now. IMO, the possibility is less because of the beliefs and the failure to believe by the people breeding. Most do not look hard enough for these types of dogs and others would not recognize them as good dogs because they are too busy looking for "winners". That's the irony, that "the winners" are even known as such. They are only winners in one venue and that was never what a GSD was intended to be. What makes them winners also doesn't have a lot to do with being a great GSD. It is based on a fashion and on qualities that are simply not necessary for any type of work or for living as a family dog. Seeing eye dogs don't need side gait, they don't need a perfect topline but they do need temperament. If they are GSDs , the protective instinct should be "standard equipment". Should not really be a trait that is readily noticeable but in cases where there is a need for it, immediately apparent. Yes, they are still out there, I see them daily actually.

If people bred more to the "naturals" , the ones that make you say, "now that is a German Shepherd", we wouldn't be seeing so many dogs that only resemble a GSD in that they have pointy ears.
It's true about the ignorance of the judges and it is true in the SchH venues as well as the shows etc. Many show judges simply have ignored what they know is the truth and we have seen the result of that behavior, especially in the last ten years. Once again, they are claiming things are going to change but since that has been repeated every year for the last decade or so, I won't be holding my breath. What happens there doesn't have much to do with me and the dogs I work with anyway. I have absolutely no interest in something that has been so damaging to the breed. If I decided to participate, I would be completely outnumbered by the people who possess a totally different mentality about what makes a good GSD. This is happening in SchH as well, which for me, is particularly sad. I think in another ten years, people may understand what I mean by that last sentence. Seems most have been about ten years behind what I have seen coming for the last 35. Most don't want to see it because they are winning at the moment and trying to fix anything just gets in the way of that.

 

Anne, thanks for saying diplomatically what I am not as elonquent saying. I figured most people would realize that there are many dogs today that don't have this balance or else we would not be having this dialogue. I also thought most would read between the lines in that there are some dogs out there like that, but people are so intent on trophies, ribbons, and inflating their ego that they DON'T even look to find these dogs to breed to because it won't produce the dog that continues the fads created in the showring and sport field. I think I said people ought to utilize them more SO that the breed could get on track and they wouldn't be difficult to find. (BTW, Castlemaid, Andy has a litter sister to your dog here in South Jersey and this female is in preparation for AKC, Tracking, and Therapy certifications. She has rock solid nerve and is very social, owner doesn't chose to do bitework but is an old AKC GS breed person in show and obedience and has told me that this dog is phenomenal and she can't get a dog like this from lines she used in the past.) Guess she just had dumb luck also! There are good dogs out there that will bring balance back to the breed, but dogs don't set up their own breedings, so its usually the ignorance or the ego that drives breeders today to create the type dogs we see representatively in the breed ring and sport field. And of course where do the Judges come from ......no not lawyers(Got cha!!), but usually successful breeders in the show and sport ring. So it becomes self perpetuating.

 

would you expect a single person to be a world class athelete as well as a top scholar?

Ummm....lots of college athletes fit both. Many pros did both as well.

 

Ummm....lots of college athletes fit both. Many pros did both as well.

Many college athletes are good at the college level of each but hardly would be considered "World Class".

True world class = "Professional" not collegiate!

 

True world class = "Professional" not collegiate!

And if you noticed, I included pros in my statement.

 

Got a few of the "many" examples that you know?

 

Since I don't watch sports except soccer (world cup) and haven't paid attention to the Packers since the 90's (and even barely then), no, I don't have examples off hand, nor am I going to dig them up because you want to be in a peeing contest.

 

That is about what I figured! Thanks for confirming.

Wonder what you were basing your statment above on, I guess just your opinion?

BTW, it is usually refered to as a pissing contest!

Are you suggesting that you think at least one of the Packers football players is a world class scholar? HA! HA! HA!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by codmaster
Or maybe do you think we could take the German Sieger (or Siegeren) one year (as I think that most people would agree that this dog or bitch should have a mentally sound temperament) and send them right into seeying eye dog training?


Nope, because the German Sieger, just like the American Grand Victor, is an extreme example of specialization not versatility.

So then would you say that the German people have not done any better than the US show folks? And their "top" dogs are also not very versatile? Is there anybody breeding the dog that you seem to think exists that can "do it all and be great" in all of the various roles/jobs that an individual GSD can do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by codmaster
By the same token I don't believe that we could take the herding top dog and make him/her a top notch K9 operative

You need a better understanding of herding dogs as used in Germany. What is needed for one is needed for the other. Yea, if that is true then you must be right. German herding must be VERY different than American herding as in the US very rarely does the dog need to track and stop humanswho might have guns and knifes and also very rarely does the US K9 have to round up a bunch of woolies!


Quote:
Originally Posted by codmaster
Could a single individual GSD be good at all these things - YES! I believe that you can find a single dog that could do these things; BUT I do not believe that it is or would be expected to think that the average GSD could even be reasonably expected to be good at all these things and more.

In this day and age, you may be right since the breed has been bred to be very specialized, but that is NOT how it was originally designed. Of course Cliff gave you some examples of dogs that are very versitile and have done well in many fields and sports. The breed has not been specialized - actually certain lines/breeders have decided to specialize in breeding dogs to be better at certain jobs/roles.


Quote:
Originally Posted by codmaster
Similar - would you expect a single person to be a world class athelete as well as a top scholar? No, but a single rare individual might be able to be both.

No, but that is like comparing apples to oranges. But I can expect a single person to be a world class athlete in many sports. "apples to oranges???????" How many people do you know who are truly world class athletes in more than one unrelated sports? Doesn't happen except in very rare cases!
__________________

Interesting thoughts!

 

Yea, if that is true then you must be right. German herding must be VERY different than American herding as in the US very rarely does the dog need to track and stop humanswho might have guns and knifes and also very rarely does the US K9 have to round up a bunch of woolies!

Training and character are two different things.

The temperament traits that make a dog suitable for the two endeavors are essentially the same in most respects. From there it is only a matter of what the trainer decides to make the dog's job. The discussion is on what GSDs can do by virtue of their genetics, not what different people choose to train in.

IMO, the constant repetition of "world class" this and "world class" that indicates a fundamental understanding of the heritage and purpose of this breed. It was never intended to be a "world class" anything. "World class" implies specialization, and that is contrary to the design of this breed. The GSD is to be the "jack of all trades, master of none". The widely versatile dog that isn't best at anything, but is second best at everything.

So to keep with the metaphors you like of scholars and athletes, to ask for examples of Rhodes Scholars who are Major League MVPs is beyond "apples and oranges" for the discussion at hand. The GSD isn't supposed to be the canine equivalent of Albert Einstein or Thomas Eddison or Wayne Gretzky or Michael Jordan.

Rather, the example of the kid who has a starting position on the college ball team, who shows up to every practice and plays every game, can be counted on to think and play smart and be a team player and always get his job done, who keeps at it when it gets tough without getting rattled when things go awry, all while maintaining that A- average is exactly the way a GSD should be. Valedictorian? No. Heisman trophy winner? No. Great at anything? No. Versatile, adaptable and better than good at everything? YES!

 

The breed has not been specialized - actually certain lines/breeders have decided to specialize in breeding dogs to be better at certain jobs/roles.

Doesn't mean that they can't be versatile.

It's like with jumping or dressage horses, or Haflinger. Do you know how many horses are bread for a certain thing and end up doing something completely different?

Haflinger (mountain horses) do great in reining. Some of the best reiners in the EWU Germany are Haflingers.

Rio, the very old horse of my sister was bread to be a jumper. He ended up going successfully in M-Dressage.

Specialization doesn't mean anything. Either they have it or they don't have it and if a dog has a sound temperament, learns quickly he can do anything and everything.

Its about YOU! It's about the handler, if they don't take the time to find out they will never know!

 

Doesn't mean that they can't be versatile. Of course they could but, if the job demands certain characteristics (defensive attitude, very easy going, very hyped attitude, etc.) then it is very difficult for a given individual to do good at all jobs!)

It's like with jumping or dressage horses, or Haflinger. Do you know how many horses are bread for a certain thing and end up doing something completely different?

How about a plow horse and a race horse? they might switch jobs but probably wouldn't be very successful, would they?

Haflinger (mountain horses) do great in reining. Some of the best reiners in the EWU Germany are Haflingers.

Rio, the very old horse of my sister was bread to be a jumper. He ended up going successfully in M-Dressage.

Specialization doesn't mean anything. Either they have it or they don't have it and if a dog has a sound temperament, learns quickly he can do anything and everything. What do mean by "it"? If you mean the attitudes, physical makeup like size, and mental characteristics - these are going to be a little different for each potential job of the GSD (i.e. wouldn't you agree that the characteristics of a top Sch dog would be at least a little different than that of a seeing eye candidate or maybe a therapy dog?)

Its about YOU! It's about the handler, if they don't take the time to find out they will never know!

HuH? Have no idea what you are trying to say .

 

Morgan Horse.

 

The German Shepherd was a jack of all trades, golden middle kind of dog. That a dog could do well at several "tasks" just doesn't sound that far out. Today we have niche breeding for specialized competition venues. Perhaps this makes it hard for people to imagine how the breed was and what a broadly bred dog could do.

 

Energy levels? A dog with solid nerve can have "energy" and do many jobs.