Originally Posted By: mjbgsd

If they can't handle a GSD with drive, they should go to Goldens or a lab. Shepherds aren't suppose to be couch potatoes, nor where they originally bred to be or have lower drive. Most Am show breeders (not all) tend to forget temperament or breed for lower drives as they don't really need any of that in the ring. What's the point of that...?? A GSD is a working dog. If people can't handle a working dog, get another breed for a first time dog. Yes, some working lines have lower drive but most breeders aren't purposfully breeding for that.

Me in my newness but always trying to learn more mind could not agree with you more. Why move away from the breed standard to suit people who really should own another breed?
I do NOT like the look of angulation. My brother was here and he was amazed with Lucy's athleticism. She's a great jumper and he was wow'd a few times as she lept in the air to catch a tennis ball. His experience had been with BYB Am or mixed lines-
She's a workin' girl indeed.

 

Found this website - might be of interest as it is illustrated. Not specifically angulation but breed standard in general.

http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/05_The_Hindquarters/The_Hindquarters.html

Blake is a Figure 19! Anyone know how we can fix it? Specific exercises?

 

^^^That article is amazing, thank you for posting it!! It's exactly what I was looking for!

Originally Posted By: mjbgsd
If they can't handle a GSD with drive, they should go to Goldens or a lab. Shepherds aren't suppose to be couch potatoes, nor where they originally bred to be or have lower drive. Most Am show breeders (not all) tend to forget temperament or breed for lower drives as they don't really need any of that in the ring. What's the point of that...?? A GSD is a working dog. If people can't handle a working dog, get another breed for a first time dog. Yes, some working lines have lower drive but most breeders aren't purposfully breeding for that.

This is EXACTLY how I feel! It's funny, I started working as a dog groomer a few years ago, and it helped fuel my love of dogs. I never liked small dogs much, but after working there I started appreciating that they could be cute. However, the more I researched and learned about dogs and function and good breeding, the more I decided that small dogs just shouldn't exist! I love that dogs have a job to do, regardless of what that job is, and I love that it can be tested and proven before a dog is bred. For GSDs, this means some sort of field work, and therefor breeding for drive. I personally know I wouldn't be able to handle a very high drive dog, but there's always going to be pet quality dogs that don't have as much drive in litters out there, so one day I know I'll find the perfect companion. If someone wants a dog that isn't going to need to have daily exercise and mental stimulation, they should get a dog with lower drive, like you said. Labs and Goldens are bred for hunting and retrieving work, but even though they still require exercise, it isn't nearly the same level, and much easier for your "average" dog owner.

I guess the whole point of my rambling, is why bother breeding a working dog with the sole purpose of looks, when the structure you're striving for is supposed to aid in working??

 

It is selfish, selfish, selfish, and I say one more time selfish to breed a purebred dog for what "YOU" what, if it is destroying the intent and creation of the dog's legacy as a "purebred" bred. So very sad!!!

 

Originally Posted By: RavenSophiFound this website - might be of interest as it is illustrated. Not specifically angulation but breed standard in general.

http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/05_The_Hindquarters/The_Hindquarters.html

Blake is a Figure 19! Anyone know how we can fix it? Specific exercises?

There is no way to "fix" structure. There are schools of thought that cow hocks actually are beneficial for a dog to be agile and quick turns.

 

Nice in theory to say that if someone can't handle a high drive working dog they shouldn't buy a gsd, but unfortunately it happens every day. And every day these dogs end up in the shelters (or worse) because some bozo doesn't know how to handle/train one because of their high energy and strong drives. Having been involved with rescue for a number of years opened my eyes to the ignorance of people who go out and buy gsds with not a clue what to expect or what they're getting into. For those of us who train our dogs for whatever sport we're involved in, we have a choice to buy the type best suited to our needs. I personally love high energy high drive shepherds to train, but do you think for a minute this is the type I recommend a first time owner to go out and buy? Heck no! I'm also very proud of my Am showline boy and think he's a great representation of the breed. I do agree dogs shouldn't be bred to look crippled or deformed or bad traits and poor temperments passed on, but I think there is a need for both types. Just too much 'dog bashing' between the Am showlines vs the German lines. I doubt it will ever change, but I've personally come to a happy medium by owning both types.

 

The breed had an intention when it was created and that was to be a working dog. If any buyer cannot meet the BASIC needs of a working dog (any breed) than they should look elsewhere. Breeders should be striving to maintain the working ability (in any working dog) not water it down so more people can own a reasonable facsimile of a WORKING dog. If they want a lazy couch potato try a different breed. I am not saying ALL GSD should be owned by people that will work them in one way or another but NO working breed (any breed) should be bred simply to produce pets for people who want the look but are simply not cut out to own such a dog.

 

Quote: I'm also very proud of my Am showline boy and think he's a great representation of the breed. I do agree dogs shouldn't be bred to look crippled or deformed or bad traits and poor temperments passed on, but I think there is a need for both types. Just too much 'dog bashing' between the Am showlines vs the German lines.

Ditto!!

 

If your American showline dogs possesses the basic physical and mental characteristics that are in the standard which makes for a good working dog as the standard states....then most people aren't bashing your dog at all. But if a large percentage of a certain line do not possess these traits, but are in fact extremely angulated, shy, walk on hocks, would run from a loud noise,etc, then what should true lovers of this breed do, act like they don't exist and accept this phenomenon because a minority of the line does have solid traits. With this mentality how will the breed maintain its place in the working world for which it was created? If the majority of American showlines are sound and the unsound ones are the exception then I am not a basher of the line. But I went to Boardwalk K C show THIS year and if I told you what I saw you would think I was bashing....so I guess I could lie and say that the dogs I saw that Judges were supposedly judging by the standard were herding/working dogs....buttttt....I really think that the bashers are not as important as the breeders and Judges who continue to accept representatives that make a mockery of the standard and thus the breed!

 

And the Working line breeders who are so intent on high protection scores that they breed nervy dogs unsuitable for family life or the High line breeders with the roached backs and short upper arms aren't detrimental to the breed?

The point is that there are extremes in all of the lines and plenty of fault to go around.

 

What is the correlation between high protection scores and nervy dog???????How is a showline line dog with roached back detrimental to the breed if the dog is a good family dog or is a good herding dog or is a good police dog?
You obviously don't have a clue about Sch and you also project a values system of "detrimental" as being something not desirable in the American Show Ring. The German Shepherd was not made to be correct for the American show ring....to the contrary the GS was made to be a working dog and quite frankly the one place you most consistently see GS that can't work is the ASR. Surely a workingline dog that is not suitable for family in your eyes but is an excellent police service dog or military dog is not "detrimental" to the breed. Certainly a German showline dog that is roached but is a certified SAR or FEMA dog or family dog is not detrimental to the breed. How about a dog that when you take it off its property has that "worried look" and tail tucked underneath it, and afraid of loud sounds, that to me is detrimental to the breed. I agree there can be many degrees of German Shepherd as long as the dog is capable of functionality. But the GS that are bred that are incapable of functioning in a capacity to serve man is "truly" the type of GS that is detrimental...JMO

 

Some comments

There was a statement that labs and goldens did not have as high drive. Well, labs are also bred for work and pet/show and while I have toyed with the idea of having a field lab for cadaver work, a working line GSD is about the limit of hyper that I can live with. I would not want one of these labs in my house. [but they can be awesome dogs] -

Not seeing many of either showline type persisting in SAR. See more Ambred BYB types than German Show or American Show but see a LOT of sable GSDs which are presumably largely eastern european.

 

Some comments

There was a statement that labs and goldens did not have as high drive. Well, labs are also bred for work and pet/show and while I have toyed with the idea of having a field lab for cadaver work, a working line GSD is about the limit of hyper that I can live with. I would not want one of these labs in my house. [but they can be awesome dogs] -

There are 'hyper' field labs(and show labs too...) There are also field labs that arent. I have 9 adult and 2 pup FIELD BRED Labs. All live in my home, NONE are hyper spazzes... well one, who just got the release to work, after 3 mos of TPLO recovery..... you have to talk with breeders see what their dogs temperements are like and go from there. If you want a field bred lab for cadaver work theres no reason why you cant have a good one with solid non spazz temperment. Especially if youre working her , she/he should be a very good companion for you, with plenty of work ethic. I've dealt with a S/R trainer and sold her dogs before, she has very good success with the field dogs. If you want a lab dont give up....
Not yet a shepherd owner but am looking...

 

Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1Ceph, Sorry it has taken so long for me to get back....I understood your point to be that not many dogs with the show trot were being sent to ULF so that may be the reason for not seeing these dogs participating in HGH. My point is that in Germany they have many HGH trials and 70% of the German dogs are from Hochlines so the premise would be that with the type of angulation that produces that more extreme trot, then the HGH trials should be dominated with these type of dogs because their gait is so good for herding.
Actually, other than Karl Fuller and Kirschental, if you go to many HGH trials and especially the regional events you will not find that this type of dog is predominate. I think you will find dogs with moderate size and angles that are fast and agile. I am saying that the premise that angulation that wins in either showring (American or German), has fostered a premise that this trot is beneficial to the herding vocation, and I think that the real shepherds and herding trial do not bear this out. Actually, the dogs that excell in Herding would not get a second look in a showring....so I think it is disingenious to advocate that extreme trot body structure is beneficial to herding when the facts don't support this....and after all if this extreme trot is NOT utilized by Herding people than what was it created for, and sold to the public as being correct for a working dog?

to support Clinton's argument with pictures - pics of recent winners of the SV national HGH herding championship in Germany - check out the angulation of these REAL herding GSDs:
http://www.blh2008.de/historie.htm

if a picture is worth a thousand words - a video is?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjLxsTnzvAc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ifJDNFLklo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b45WYL_2Xb8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLOvOfAw4rM&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHeb28hQzAU&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osC7QXMj9Y4&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0q0FLoEsrs&feature=channel_page

You can see in the videos that the dogs actually do more galloping than trotting. Like doing the running of the blind search in the protection phase of SchH but 10X over if not more.

One of the inherent fallacies of the show ring trot as being a working gait is obvious in these videos. Watch how fast the dogs are moving. Obviously, too fast for any human being to keep up with them. In the show ring, a human handler is limiting the dog's speed, therefore any type of gait the dog is able to show in the show ring is "unnatural" and not a working gait. It's like watching a 200 mph race car crawling at 20 mph and concluding that its moving at its working speed. One can actually do GSD style herding of 100 sheep by humans alone, without a single dog, but you would need 12 humans to do the same work of one good herding GSD. Back to the need for a herding dog in the first place, so you don't need 12 humans to do the work.
What to do with the 11 extra humans? - build villages, farm crops, build temples, create more humans, create art, decree laws, start governments, build armies - the very history of civilization.

 

Watch the first 45 seconds of this BSP 2008 dog, doing the blind search in protection and how similar its gait is to the dogs doing HGH herding. Conclusion: the blind search is a better indicator of correct working structure for a herding dog than the show ring.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh29Zu6qkYc

 

People will always be changing dogs to meet their needs. That is how it has been for eons. This very activity lead to the creation of type and dogs that breed true,iow,purebred dogs.
Small dogs were bred for very real work. They attracted the fleas from the owner as they sat on their laps. They were carried in muffs to warm the hands. Some were bred to rat in small holes. Many served to alert to danger. The emotional and health advantages of owning a dog have been so well proven that perhaps all well-loved dogs are "working" at home.

In a culture where the pastoral lifestyle is not prevasive and much agrarian activity is mechanized, it is more difficult for the working dog to remain in demand. I am saddened by it because we may lose the history of these dog's development due to lack of demand. Max saw it coming and advocated his herding dog as useful in other service endeavors.

Should the different varieties of GSD adopt different names? When does the split consistute seperate breeds? Max said it is not GSD breeding when it is no longer bred for work. Perhaps at that point a "different" breed is being bred. Is there room for everyone? The split probably isn't going to go away.

I wouldn't trade my am showline shepherd for a lab or a golden. I have all of those breeds here around me today, and in my mind, not a substitute. I also have a highline GSD on the sofa by me and the east/west working dogs are running in the yard. God bless them all, they are none troubled with such questions, arguments and conundrums. I think I'll go out for a romp in the spring grass myself!

 

For the record, Golden Retrievers and Labradors are NOT couch potatoes either, and the majority of them, of any breeding, are not a good first time dog for a lazy person who doesn't want to do two or three hours a day of exercising with his dog.

I also do agree that if you don't want a working, active sporting or herding dog, then don't get one of these breeds. When I want a lazy dog that sleeps all day and only needs a few sprints a week, I get a Whippet or a Greyhound. There's plenty of lazy sofa hounds in need of homes for people who can't cope with a shedding, high drive, always-ready-to-work retriever or Shepherd.

Even show bred Labs and Goldens need a lot more exercise than a Greyhound or a Pug, and that's as it should be.

The majority of show folks I know in ALL breeds sit ringside and go crazy over a dog they like because "look at that movement!" and "Man, his type is to die for!!!" and working never enters the discussion. That's okay with me- they're playing their game, and they're not stopping me from playing mine. That's what they're breeding for- that's what the market is for.

Also, it doesn't help that even I, who have never set foot in a GSD conformation ring, could tell you who will win at a given show simply by looking at the handlers without even glancing at the dogs. Can we not admit this is part of the problem?

We all pay into and support and own whatever type of dog fits our need, and the game we enjoy playing. Opinions are fine, but at the end of the day I prefer live and let live. It would make me very sad to see the working GSD (or Golden, or Labrador) disappear to be certain, but it won't happen unless the only demand is for pretty movers and extreme type.

The working dogs (which I prefer, by the way, in almost all breeds) are still going strong. There is an ample market for them, too.

I guess I'm saying: breed for whatever you want- but be honest. Admit it

And be responsible for your dogs. That's all I ask.

 

Quote:When I want a lazy dog that sleeps all day and only needs a few sprints a week, I get a Whippet or a Greyhound.

Although these guys are willing to laze around they prefer a more active lifestyle & benefit hugely from a few sprints a day versus each week. This is equally true of Irish Wolfhounds & Scottish Deerhounds. Mature sighthounds usually settle well in the house, but they still need adequate daily exercise, mental & physical, to truly thrive. They tolerate a lack of activity better than many breeds, but most of them neither thrive nor prefer a sedentary lifestyle.

Healthy dogs almost universally prefer activity & exercise. Notable exceptions to this are extremely dwarfed or brachycephalic breeds, largely b/c their deformities make strenuous activity difficult, even hazardous. I've gotta admit, I'm squeamish about these guys. It just seems profoundly wrong to breed dogs that can barely breathe or run & are intolerant of both heat & cold.

Anyone who can't provide a medium to large dog ample exercise should consider one of the toy breeds, which are active but small enough to exercise inside a house, or even an apartment. (Contrary to some disparaging notions, they're most emphatically 'real dogs'...loyal, loving & clever with enormous heart & character)

 

I agree with much of what has been said here but the GSD was never meant to be couch lazy and a dog for the indoors unless properly exercised. I love mine to death but if not execised properly he is a real bear. Mine is currently a huge GSD with a fairly straight back and legs that go all the way to the ground. He fears nothing and is somewhat hard to control but he is what the breed is all about. If you don't want a dog that will take you to the end of your nerves then stay away from this breed as they are all dog and will challenge you all the way. I have waited for 40 years for a companion pet that would be all I wanted it to be and after many dogs I have found one capable of being just that. He is not show dog worthy and is just a pet but can go all day in the woods and has actually had some action that may have kept me from harm already! I will never own another breed of dog as this one fits my life style so well but that is just for me. My dog is bigger, faster and more capable than any show line dog I have seen so when you are ready to purchase your puppy please think about what you want it for.

 

The reason why there is so much stress about angulation is that the German Shepherd dog originated as a herding dog. Herding dogs must have high endurance, agility and strength, and must be able to trot on and off for considerable periods of time. Dogs with excesive angulation are not able to perform in such a way.

As far as I know the AKC standard doesn't say so, but the Verein fur Deutsche Schaferhunde, which is the German Shepherd dog club in Germany and the governing body that controls the German Shepherd dog's breeding, did establish the German Shepherd dog breed standard in 1899, which describes amongst other things, the GSD’s physical structure and I'm pretty sure it doesn't include excesive angulation.

What happened was that although up to World War II, German Shepherds in America were identical to the ones in Germany, after the war they each went their own way. This was due to the animosity between the two countries. In America, there was excessive inbreeding and line breeding and american German Shepherds started showing characteristics of their own. One of them being much more angulated hindquarters.

If you would like to learn more about it, I have two pretty long articles on my website which explain this in more detail.

 

I really beleive the divergence in type of GS in Europe and the US began in the late sixties. This really started with the popularity of Lance of Franjo, and the subsequent excessive and continued line/inbreeding on him and his progeny. Prior to this period there were many great kennels in America that produced dogs with good structure and great working ability.

 

For anybody that may be interested, Jimmy Moses was interviewed for an article in the Review this month that I believe is actually very good and worth the read.

Interview with James (Jim) Moses in the June 2010 Review

 

I was into American show dogs in early 70's, when Jimmy, Gary Stacer, Lamar Kuhns, Georgie Berstler, Mary Roberts, and many more were great handlers. I read Jimmy's article with interest. I do agree with him that many in the parent club need to be educated, and I also think that Judges have to have a knowledge base of structure, history, and work.JMO

 

I also think that Judges have to have a knowledge base of structure, history, and work.JMO

Do you think that they do? I stopped showing in AKC conformation (and really anything AKC) after the last show I entered, the judge-in-training openly admitted that she was not aware there were different types of GSDs (west German show line, American line, working line). This was a show where the judges were not yet "certified" or whatever, but in training to become AKC judges. In each class she put up an American line dog, then in my dog's class there were only German show lines and she was obviously confused about what to do. Afterward she approached us and asked about our dogs and why they looked "different". She admitted she wasn't even sure how to judge them. And these were show line dogs, I wouldn't be surprised if she's never even seen a working line dog or knows they exist. I guess that experience showed me that the AKC is not training their judges on the history or the work of the breed or even the basic differences in type. I pay a lot to enter shows and events and usually have to travel so I'll take my money and efforts elsewhere from now on.

 

I was at our club show this month. The judges asked me what my breed was. When I said German Shepherds, there was much talk of how difficult it is find a "good one".

One time, when asked, I said that I was really loving all that my Catahoula is. A hush fell. The Catahoula people will resist AKC recognition with all they have.

Jimmy and Georgie are still making their way around the ring as handlers these days! I often wonder what people who have seen the decades of change think about it all.

The splits and differences in the breed are significant enough that I am not surprised a provisional judge could be stumped by what different "varieties" of our dogs might bring to the ring. Perhaps we should have "variety" classes!

 

I had a judge at an AKC show ask me what my dark sable GSD puppy was..... thought he was a Dutchie!!

 

Was it a GSD speciality show or an all breed show? Makes a very big difference.

I once entered out 9-12 month old puppy in an all breed and had the handler inform us after the class that the judge was afraid of GSD's in general!

 

I once entered out 9-12 month old puppy in an all breed and had the handler inform us after the class that the judge was afraid of GSD's in general!

I've had this before too. In WDA the judge himself inspects the bite very closely, even touching the inside of the mouth and teeth. In UKC I've had judges who have me show the bite and won't come within 5 feet of the dog's mouth. I guess it's their prerogative, my dog does not have an absolutely perfect bite but they will never see it if they don't LOOK.

 

How can you be a Judge of the breed but not be knowledgable about History or Work. These observations people are making about certain judges knowledge base outside the ring is nothing new in American show circuit. One thing I can say about every SV Judge I have met is that they know the breed and they also know how to train the breed in obedience/tracking/protection. They usually have knowledge of the history of the breed.
Some of the opinions and misbeliefs that I used to hear from AKC conformation judges was actually appalling. Things like Sch dogs are unsafe and will bite indiscriminately. I mean folks in the country of origin where EVERY GS HAS to have a Sch title to even be bred, if these statements were true you would read about dogbites in Germany 50 times a day. But for a breed JUDGE in America to make these kind of statements is to me the height of ignorance. How could I value an assessment made from a person with this type of limited knowledge of the BREED?????