[Xeph]

Quote:Check out the dogs in the German HGH herding championships. (DVD/tape from Leerburg's) These are dogs that work sheep on daily basis. If the 'flying trot' had a purpose, it would obviously appear in these dogs.

Yes, and how many dogs do you see being sent to Ulf for the HGH? Doesn't mean the trot doesn't have a purpose....certainly can't be evaluated long term if no one sends Ulf the dogs, or works them diligently on their own sheep.

 

[cliffson1]

Ceph, lets stay with your logic....in Germany they have the Herding championships and there are plenty of dogs in close proximity that are extremely angulated.....should we not see a lot of these dogs participating in these championships.....after all if the extreme gait from extreme angulation is beneficial to herding as I have heard showline people say so many times....then it stands to reason there is a place and example to support this supposition. Germany has the trials and the dogs of this type....do the facts support the supposition???

 

[Liesje]

Here is a dog owned by Nikon's breeder. She is a 12 time HGH, and also a BSZS herding class Siegerin. Before she was sold, she was Karl Fuller's favorite dog, and he still herds daily. She's also SchH trained; I've never seen her on sheep, just doing SchH.

I'm new to this conformation/angulation thing, so maybe you guys can comment and fill me in? Where does this dog fit in?

 

[Xeph]

Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1Ceph, lets stay with your logic....in Germany they have the Herding championships and there are plenty of dogs in close proximity that are extremely angulated.....should we not see a lot of these dogs participating in these championships.....after all if the extreme gait from extreme angulation is beneficial to herding as I have heard showline people say so many times....then it stands to reason there is a place and example to support this supposition. Germany has the trials and the dogs of this type....do the facts support the supposition???

I'm not sure you're understanding what I'm saying and I know I don't understand what you're asking. Would you mind rephrasing for me? I'd like to answer the question properly

 

[Deejays_Owner]

Lies

This was his best bitch VA3 Xitta vom Kirschental SchH3/FH/HGH/IP3 Kkl 1 born : 29. May 1978.
And the one that he is most proud of, has talked many times about in different Articles.

Note: the backhand!!

My Deejay has her in his 7th (7,7 - 7) all to Uran.

 

[Liesje]

Nice!

By "favorite dog" I meant at the time she was purchased. Nikon's breeder goes to his house to see him and pick dogs. Nikon's dam is Kirschental and Karl helped pick the sire when she visited Germany with the dog. I believe his wife told her if it were only up to Karl, he'd never sell a dog and they would be overrun with dogs.

 

[Deejays_Owner]

From the "Zwinger vom Kirschental" web-site History Page.

Quote: "Xitta" was a pure working dog with the sheep, when I presented her for the first time at the HZS, where she achieved V4 in the GHKL. At the evaluation, quote the Bundeszuchtwart, Hermman Martin: " I would have placed this dog VA, had she also had a SchH title, not just the HGH." Thereupon, I had Edzard Müller train "Xitta" through SchH3 IPO3 FH. The following year, "Xitta" achieved VA3. As much time was spent for competitions and shows, I was not able to breed "Xitta" as much as I would have liked to.

She did, however, produce outstanding progeny in each of her litters. Her first litter was out of "Argus von Aducht", which produced the HGH Sieger "Ux vom Kirschental".

Her most successful breeding was to "Uran vom Wildsteiger Land", producing the Worldsieger "Eiko vom Kirschental" (VA 1986-89).

This breeding was repeated twice, producing another successful litter with 5 males (Vagus, Valand, Vasall, Vido and Vopo) and 5 females (Valli, Vilma and Viva). The whole litter, some also abroad (USA, Sweden and Australia) were used for breeding with much success.

 

[Liesje]

I read that long ago, but always wondered about the comment:

" I would have placed this dog VA, had she also had a SchH title, not just the HGH."

Why does the SchH title negate the VA rating?

 

[Chris Wild]

I think he's saying the opposite. NOT having the SchH title, but having just the HGH, negated the VA.

 

[Liesje]

Ah, OK. My eyes deceive me! I was confused b/c when I look her up she did have the title(s).

 

[24kgsd]

For judging purposes the HGH title is equal to a SChH title but some judges do not know this, forget it, or discount it.

My beautiful Faye vom Kirschental was indeed one of Karl's favorites. I think it is safe to assume that after breeding 55 plus years that you will have many "favorites."

Faye's dam, Jassie vom Kirschental, was another favorite of Karl's. They both go back to Xitta v Kirschental through the mother line.

 

[Deejays_Owner]

Originally Posted By: GSDRuleFor judging purposes the HGH title is equal to a SChH title but some judges do not know this, forget it, or discount it.

Mr. Herman Martin was the current president of the SV at the time.
It sounds like it was not equal for a VA (Excellent Select) at the World Sieger show.

 

[cliffson1]

Ceph, Sorry it has taken so long for me to get back....I understood your point to be that not many dogs with the show trot were being sent to ULF so that may be the reason for not seeing these dogs participating in HGH. My point is that in Germany they have many HGH trials and 70% of the German dogs are from Hochlines so the premise would be that with the type of angulation that produces that more extreme trot, then the HGH trials should be dominated with these type of dogs because their gait is so good for herding.
Actually, other than Karl Fuller and Kirschental, if you go to many HGH trials and especially the regional events you will not find that this type of dog is predominate. I think you will find dogs with moderate size and angles that are fast and agile. I am saying that the premise that angulation that wins in either showring (American or German), has fostered a premise that this trot is beneficial to the herding vocation, and I think that the real shepherds and herding trial do not bear this out. Actually, the dogs that excell in Herding would not get a second look in a showring....so I think it is disingenious to advocate that extreme trot body structure is beneficial to herding when the facts don't support this....and after all if this extreme trot is NOT utilized by Herding people than what was it created for, and sold to the public as being correct for a working dog?

 

[Deejays_Owner]

cliftonanderson

Here is an Article from Ulf Kintzel ----> Herding Dogs & the Golden Middle

From the Structure section.

He said that Sheep Herders in Germany don't use dogs with angulation.
They don't think it is necessary, and from his own experience less angulated dog trot pretty well.
Also goes on to say that dogs that have too much anglation often do have a problem to
run fast enough when sheep bolt, & problems jumping high livestock fences.

 

[Xeph]

Quote:My point is that in Germany they have many HGH trials and 70% of the German dogs are from Hochlines so the premise would be that with the type of angulation that produces that more extreme trot, then the HGH trials should be dominated with these type of dogs because their gait is so good for herding.

Then for the most part we agree...what I take issue with is that I'm talking about dogs in AMERICA being sent to Ulf...he's the only person in America that does the HGH. And while Germany has been breeding dogs that are angulated in the REAR like the Americans, they don't move the same due to having no front.

There are American dogs lacking in front too, but not near the extent that the West German dogs do.

I appreciated a well but not over angulated dog. Justin, in stack, can be extreme for me, but he's an overall efficient mover, and I wish I could put him on Sheep...or put Strauss on sheep for that matter.

And the more angulated type of dog could dominate just due to sheer numbers, but the owners make excuses for their dogs instead of sending them to work, some preferring to buy a schutzhund title because #1 they know they can't buy an HGH, and #2, even though it is supposed to be equal to a schutzhund title, the judges tend not to see it that way. They don't want to risk their dog going V instead of VA because the dog has an HGH and not a SchH III

 

[Liesje]

What does it mean to have "no front"? Sorry, I need like a manual on the GSD conformation buzz words!

 

[Xeph]

A dog that has "no front" is not properly angulated in the shoulder, has a steep/short upper arm, and/or has little angulation in the pasterns.

A dog can have all of these things or just a couple of these things. Mostly when somebody refers to a dog having "no front" they are talking about the upper arm and shoulder angles.

This dog has no front:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/classifieds/73003.html

This dog either
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/classifieds/74442.html

This dog just has nothing in general x.x:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/classifieds/74430.html

I really DIDN'T want to use Justin for this, but I couldn't find a dog in the PDB off hand WITH a good front:

Compare Justin's shoulder to Strauss, who is very straight and lacking in upper arm:

 

[cliffson1]

Brian, thanks for the info from Ulf, must say I already knew this but it is good to hear it confirmed from somebody with a pedigree like Ulf.
Jackie, the only thing we disagree on is that the extreme angulated dogs could dominate but for the reasons you have given....a major reason you don't see more of these dogs on sheep is because it takes a dog with strong temperament to herd sheep. That's why I always rolled my eyes in my head when I heard American Show breeders trying to spin the extreme angulation makes the better herders. The temperament of these dogs, would make most of these dogs, too weak to control a large enough flock to get an HGH. So, I knew they were talking out their dreams and not something proven, just as the equation of extreme trotting being good for herding abilities.....there's no proof, no significant examples, and shows the lack of knowledge of the breeders trying to justify these dogs as being correct. I know you realize this Jackie, but how is it that a Judge can buy into this fairy tale logic???

 

[Xeph]

Quote: That's why I always rolled my eyes in my head when I heard American Show breeders trying to spin the extreme angulation makes the better herders. The temperament of these dogs, would make most of these dogs, too weak to control a large enough flock to get an HGH.

I concur

Quote: I know you realize this Jackie, but how is it that a Judge can buy into this fairy tale logic???

The same way they can place a hock walker/gaiter They go kennel blind just like any breeder can/does.

 

[Brightelf]

Hey, can we make part of this a "For Dummies" kinda thread?

Can somebody draw on an image, to show us where the angle in the front is too shallow or steep? I am having trouble seeing this in dogs.

Or, am I mebbe jus' the dumbest one here, not seeing the angles?