Originally Posted By: GSDRuleFor judging purposes the HGH title is equal to a SChH title but some judges do not know this, forget it, or discount it.

Mr. Herman Martin was the current president of the SV at the time.
It sounds like it was not equal for a VA (Excellent Select) at the World Sieger show.

 

Ceph, Sorry it has taken so long for me to get back....I understood your point to be that not many dogs with the show trot were being sent to ULF so that may be the reason for not seeing these dogs participating in HGH. My point is that in Germany they have many HGH trials and 70% of the German dogs are from Hochlines so the premise would be that with the type of angulation that produces that more extreme trot, then the HGH trials should be dominated with these type of dogs because their gait is so good for herding.
Actually, other than Karl Fuller and Kirschental, if you go to many HGH trials and especially the regional events you will not find that this type of dog is predominate. I think you will find dogs with moderate size and angles that are fast and agile. I am saying that the premise that angulation that wins in either showring (American or German), has fostered a premise that this trot is beneficial to the herding vocation, and I think that the real shepherds and herding trial do not bear this out. Actually, the dogs that excell in Herding would not get a second look in a showring....so I think it is disingenious to advocate that extreme trot body structure is beneficial to herding when the facts don't support this....and after all if this extreme trot is NOT utilized by Herding people than what was it created for, and sold to the public as being correct for a working dog?

 

cliftonanderson

Here is an Article from Ulf Kintzel ----> Herding Dogs & the Golden Middle

From the Structure section.

He said that Sheep Herders in Germany don't use dogs with angulation.
They don't think it is necessary, and from his own experience less angulated dog trot pretty well.
Also goes on to say that dogs that have too much anglation often do have a problem to
run fast enough when sheep bolt, & problems jumping high livestock fences.

 

Quote:My point is that in Germany they have many HGH trials and 70% of the German dogs are from Hochlines so the premise would be that with the type of angulation that produces that more extreme trot, then the HGH trials should be dominated with these type of dogs because their gait is so good for herding.

Then for the most part we agree...what I take issue with is that I'm talking about dogs in AMERICA being sent to Ulf...he's the only person in America that does the HGH. And while Germany has been breeding dogs that are angulated in the REAR like the Americans, they don't move the same due to having no front.

There are American dogs lacking in front too, but not near the extent that the West German dogs do.

I appreciated a well but not over angulated dog. Justin, in stack, can be extreme for me, but he's an overall efficient mover, and I wish I could put him on Sheep...or put Strauss on sheep for that matter.

And the more angulated type of dog could dominate just due to sheer numbers, but the owners make excuses for their dogs instead of sending them to work, some preferring to buy a schutzhund title because #1 they know they can't buy an HGH, and #2, even though it is supposed to be equal to a schutzhund title, the judges tend not to see it that way. They don't want to risk their dog going V instead of VA because the dog has an HGH and not a SchH III

 

What does it mean to have "no front"? Sorry, I need like a manual on the GSD conformation buzz words!

 

A dog that has "no front" is not properly angulated in the shoulder, has a steep/short upper arm, and/or has little angulation in the pasterns.

A dog can have all of these things or just a couple of these things. Mostly when somebody refers to a dog having "no front" they are talking about the upper arm and shoulder angles.

This dog has no front:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/classifieds/73003.html

This dog either
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/classifieds/74442.html

This dog just has nothing in general x.x:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/classifieds/74430.html

I really DIDN'T want to use Justin for this, but I couldn't find a dog in the PDB off hand WITH a good front:

Compare Justin's shoulder to Strauss, who is very straight and lacking in upper arm:

 

Brian, thanks for the info from Ulf, must say I already knew this but it is good to hear it confirmed from somebody with a pedigree like Ulf.
Jackie, the only thing we disagree on is that the extreme angulated dogs could dominate but for the reasons you have given....a major reason you don't see more of these dogs on sheep is because it takes a dog with strong temperament to herd sheep. That's why I always rolled my eyes in my head when I heard American Show breeders trying to spin the extreme angulation makes the better herders. The temperament of these dogs, would make most of these dogs, too weak to control a large enough flock to get an HGH. So, I knew they were talking out their dreams and not something proven, just as the equation of extreme trotting being good for herding abilities.....there's no proof, no significant examples, and shows the lack of knowledge of the breeders trying to justify these dogs as being correct. I know you realize this Jackie, but how is it that a Judge can buy into this fairy tale logic???

 

Quote: That's why I always rolled my eyes in my head when I heard American Show breeders trying to spin the extreme angulation makes the better herders. The temperament of these dogs, would make most of these dogs, too weak to control a large enough flock to get an HGH.

I concur

Quote: I know you realize this Jackie, but how is it that a Judge can buy into this fairy tale logic???

The same way they can place a hock walker/gaiter They go kennel blind just like any breeder can/does.

 

Hey, can we make part of this a "For Dummies" kinda thread?

Can somebody draw on an image, to show us where the angle in the front is too shallow or steep? I am having trouble seeing this in dogs.

Or, am I mebbe jus' the dumbest one here, not seeing the angles?

 

This is a GREAT thread. Can we mail several hundred copies to the AKC and the GSDCA?

Brian, what are you referring to when you say the "backhand?"

 

The Hindquarter. I hate it when it's called the backhand...it's not a hand xD

It just annoys me, lol.

By the way, this isn't a commentary on Brian, just in general. I only hear the German side refer to it as the backhand. The Americans refer to it as the hindquarter.

 

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. In fact, I think that goes into sense-debt. Perhaps there was something lost in that translation. I'll keep "hindquarter" as well. Thank you, Jackie.

 

Originally Posted By: BrightelfHey, can we make part of this a "For Dummies" kinda thread?

Can somebody draw on an image, to show us where the angle in the front is too shallow or steep? I am having trouble seeing this in dogs.

I would absolutely LOVE something like this! I've been trying to study up on GSDs recently, and although I know in general I like less slope than your average American show dog, it would be wonderful to see some guides to learn about terminology so I know WHY I have the opinions I do, and to help me decide how I would personally see fit to comply with the breed standard.

I know what I like, especially when I see a dog in movement, but I have absolutely no working knowledge to back up my claims!

 

Originally Posted By: BrightelfHey, can we make part of this a "For Dummies" kinda thread?

Can somebody draw on an image, to show us where the angle in the front is too shallow or steep? I am having trouble seeing this in dogs.

Or, am I mebbe jus' the dumbest one here, not seeing the angles?

Well not exactly a "For Dummies" but I stickied it.

 

Have a look at this. Just found it... does that look normal????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5R--YgX0cQ

 

Not sure what the morphing horse video is trying to prove? Does the severe angulation look normal, no. But the title of the video seems to be indicating it causes HD, which it does not. The two are completely unrelated. So if that is the point of the video, whoemever created it is seriously spreading myth and misinformation.

 

That's not right.

While I find it funny, it is very useful in illustrating what happens with the chest and hind legs.

 

Well I'm sorry, I didn't go for the title just for the illustration. Of course does the severe angulation not necessary cause HD otherwise all the working dog lines over here in germany with more or less straight backs would not have any problems with HD. Well they definately DO have the same problem. All I wanted to show here was how 'not normal' that angulation looks!

 

I don't think it's very fair to use a HORSE for a comparison. I mean, I don't like extreme angulation, but it's there for a reason to a degree. A horse just runs and is structured completely different, a working dog's stances and postures lend itself naturally to different structure. Think about a wolf out hunting, WAY different than a horse! It's not just about getting the longest gait possible, it's about the whole package, maneuverability, speed, and efficiency.

 

I seldom post on threads other than the rescue board, but couldn't help but add my five cents worth after looking at that dumb morphing horse video. It looked like it changed from a normal looking flat shod horse into looking like a padded Tennessee Walking Horse. What on earth does it have to do with a german shepherd I dont know either>


Something is to be said about diversifying and owning both American showline AND german line gsds. You can see the beauty and strengths in both types of conformations, temperments and abilities. There's going to be extremes in conformation in both lines... not all dogs are born to be good athletes irregardless of whether they have the conformation to be one or not. On the other hand, some of the Am showline dogs that are 'down in the hocks' and quite angulated ARE actually very athletic and sound. I'm proud to say I own one and he's a wonderful athletic dog and breath taking to watch gait. I love my german girl too and she's an awesome dog in her capabilities...enough said... continue . . .

 

A few years ago My Daughter was show training our Highline male in a park.
This guy comes up to me, telling me about his dog, how the Breeder (AM-Line)
wants him back as he is just breath taking. And maybe they can come by and the
dogs could play one day. The guy comes by the next day, gets his dog out it's going
nuts jumping barking pulling him across the field. I had Deejay by my-side in a down,
tell the guy to just unhook him. It charges over, I give Deejay the OK, and they started
to play. Deejay was running it's ass off, he had to jump over it a few times as it had
a hard time turning. After 5 min's of running this dog was beat, could not handle Deejay pushing him.
It turned on Deejay and tried to bite him, big mistake Deejay pinned him and put the fear of God on him.
I had to pull Deejay off of him, that was the last time we have seen that dog around.
Bet it's gone Champion by now!!

 

Quote:After 5 min's of running this dog was beat

Overangulation can do that to a dog...so can being out of condition.

Quote:could not handle Deejay pushing him.

Sounds like pretty rude behavior to me on the part of Deejay. The other dog said "That's enough". It shouldn't be a mistake for the other dog to tell him "Get out of my face, I don't play that way!"

 

Sounds a little risky to me. . . turning two unfamiliar male dogs loose together. I doubt the Am line dog went on to finish his title as if the owner had any serious intentions of showing him he wouldn't be turning him loose with strange dogs and taking a chance on getting him tore up in a fight!

But anyways, not all gsds are high energy, high drive, and have a desire or the conditioning to run wide open all day. Actually the lower energy, lower drives of many of the Am lines make them ideal family/companion dogs especially for the first time gsd owner. And I'd like to say that over the past 3 or 4 years that I've been doing rescue I have only seen two obvious Am showline type out of shelters. So that says something to me about the Am showline breeders.

 

Show line type doesn't mean show line dogs. I know of a few GSDs that are working lines but could pass for show.

I'm not saying a breeder didn't abandon these dogs, however, there are so many scenarios....

 

Quote:Actually the lower energy, lower drives of many of the Am lines make them ideal family/companion dogs especially for the first time gsd owner...

If they can't handle a GSD with drive, they should go to Goldens or a lab. Shepherds aren't suppose to be couch potatoes, nor where they originally bred to be or have lower drive. Most Am show breeders (not all) tend to forget temperament or breed for lower drives as they don't really need any of that in the ring. What's the point of that...?? A GSD is a working dog. If people can't handle a working dog, get another breed for a first time dog. Yes, some working lines have lower drive but most breeders aren't purposfully breeding for that.


That video was very odd...