I've got an EasternBlock Square-Butt model, too.. and he stays pretty clean. But, that's just cos he moans & snuggles in & grinds the mud and slime into Momma's clean jeans!

Will say that his movement isn't floating or graceful, even at a trot-- more powerful than float-y or attractive. Envision a 320 lb Green Bay Packer linebacker twirling in a pink beruffled tutu across a ballet stage. His movement is efficient, but it ain't purty.

 

Packers FTW!!

 

Originally Posted By: BrightelfI've got an EasternBlock Square-Butt model, too.. and he stays pretty clean. But, that's just cos he moans & snuggles in & grinds the mud and slime into Momma's clean jeans!

Will say that his movement isn't floating or graceful, even at a trot-- more powerful than float-y or attractive. Envision a 320 lb Green Bay Packer linebacker twirling in a pink beruffled tutu across a ballet stage. His movement is efficient, but it ain't purty.

I need to see Grimm in a pink tutu... come on, he'd do it for Mommy!

I can't say my DDR boys were as pretty to watch running as Morgan. They sort of bob along with those big thunder butts pounding.

Morgan just floats, like she's suspended in the air. When she was younger I used to try to count how many times her feet touched the ground when she ran full blast across the back yard with Luther on her tail. Gave up on that becuase she was moving too fast but she could never out run Luther. Or outsmart him, he'd try to figure out which angle she would be coming from then he'd body slam her!

 

I can say my "fat ass" Czech dog is the same way, not so graceful but the only time I have seen him fall was when he fell into a drainage culvert obscured by brush and he popped right out - it was about a 10 foot fall.

My German Showlines x working cross was beautiful to watch [daughters boyfrend would roller blade with him and the dog appeared to be suspended in air] but I cannot count the number of times he lost his footing on the woods and never did get down the knack of climbing things.

It is so hard to look at pictures of the "right" angulation because stacking can alter the view so much.

This is a horrid picture - it was summer, he had not filled out yet, and the picture was at an angle. Since this was taken, he has added muscle to the thighs and the chest has sprung more,the , but he stands square front and back with no cowhock, single tracks, but does not "float" [but the back legs come forward enough to overlap slightly the front legs on the trot] - but I *think* my assesment is - long back, steep shoulder. The stance is bad making the leg look straight but I think there really is adequate angulation in the back. Yes/no/maybe? [oh the end of the tail was lost in an accident] - - - more of a learning question

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/460211.html

 

I was looking for pictures of Luther (DDR) and Morgan (curvaceous) standing next to eachother, couldn't find what I was looking for but I found:

Kinda forgot becuase the blond dog passed through here briefly. He was the same height as Luther only heavier boned but look at the difference from behind. Blond dog could never outrun Luther, no matter how hard he tried. Also now that's it been mentioned, once, only once I saw Luther loose his balance. He used to climb the ladders on docks to get off the boat.

 

Nancy, how old was Grim in the picture? HANDSOME, by the way!

WHOA, Luther Tuff Bunz!!

Interesting re angulation, and.... stability? Grimm has taken what would have been horrific tumbles and waltzed right through them. My W. German showlines dog hadn't that type of stability, but he didn't fall often. Showline dogs aren't uncapable-- I just never realized this before, but the "brick house build," while not float-y, really does provide some stability. Grimm charges down cliffs and ultrasteep inclines CHOKED with brambles and vines, pocked with deep trenches from boar, and just dances along, remaining somehow upright.

Again, I love (and prefer) the harmonious look of those highlines trotting-- I LOVE the Sieger lines--when they are not overangulated. But, have also noted the functional benefits of the squarer dog in dealing with covering ground over irregular (to put it mildly) terrain.

 

Originally Posted By: BrightelfNancy, how old was Grim in the picture? HANDSOME, by the way!

He was 2.5 and pix was about 2 months after I got him. He is intact and did not completely muscle up until he was about 4.

I think the stability thing is that many dogs are so narrow and having a broader stance may help within reason. Maybe it is not an angulation issue but a breadth issue - I don't know.

 

Decent article
http://www.workingdogs.com/ulfgolden.htm

I guess basically the concern he would have is "can the dog sustain the trot or will be be forced into a gallop" - not so much a question of stacking and looks but of endurance.

 

If the American Show Shepherd slope had a useful purpose, it would have appeared in dogs that have to work for a living.

Check out the dogs in the German HGH herding championships. (DVD/tape from Leerburg's) These are dogs that work sheep on daily basis. If the 'flying trot' had a purpose, it would obviously appear in these dogs.

Nope. NADA. No Way.

What you do see, however, are dogs that when they trot, have a very energy-efficient motion. The back stays almost perfectly level with little up and down or front-to-back bob.

You don't see that rear-end drag in military or police working dogs.

Therefore, it exists solely to please AKC judges.

 

Originally Posted By: SunCzarinaHere's a very odd idea:

Angulation causes excessive dirtiness.

So does being a "slob". Siren is ALWAYS covered in mud after our walks in muddy weather. But THIS is why!

 

My best mud experience was when it was a hot summer day and we were at a construction site with nothing but red clay and bulldozers. In the middle of it was a big mud puddle. Now if you are not familiar with red mud ..........

Grim was hot, boy did he have fun. Who was I to stop a hot dog from cooling off?

I thought about the car wash on the way home but figured, hmmmmm. That was Grim's first and only real bath when we got home. Normally a dip in a pond or just drying and a good brush gets rid of the dirt. Glad I have a truck [even so had to empty out and hose out the back]

 

Originally Posted By: BlackGSDSo does being a "slob". Siren is ALWAYS covered in mud after our walks in muddy weather. But THIS is why!

Tracy that picture makes me wonder what's going to happen when Otto makes his first visit to our neighborhood beach. He was too little to go last summer - when he'd had all his shots in september, they couldn't swim there becuase it's upper bay and the algae gets too thick. Hopefully this year it won't be so nasty in the fall becuase they've put in a new overflow system to collect the extra sewerage in Providence (eww)

Ah spring, the mud season that leads into BEACH season.

 

The expirence I've had with severe angulation is this. By the time the dogs reach 8, their carpus joints are so low that they can hardly stand comfortably.
Their hips are probably fine, but they tend to shift all their weight to the front end, to provide better balence with everyday movements.(which isn't the extended trot)
They may look ok in the ring when they're young, but I get to council their owners with physical therapy later.

 

Originally Posted By: Brightelf...more powerful than float-y or attractive. Envision a 320 lb Green Bay Packer linebacker twirling in a pink beruffled tutu across a ballet stage. His movement is efficient, but it ain't purty.

 

Quote:Check out the dogs in the German HGH herding championships. (DVD/tape from Leerburg's) These are dogs that work sheep on daily basis. If the 'flying trot' had a purpose, it would obviously appear in these dogs.

Yes, and how many dogs do you see being sent to Ulf for the HGH? Doesn't mean the trot doesn't have a purpose....certainly can't be evaluated long term if no one sends Ulf the dogs, or works them diligently on their own sheep.

 

Ceph, lets stay with your logic....in Germany they have the Herding championships and there are plenty of dogs in close proximity that are extremely angulated.....should we not see a lot of these dogs participating in these championships.....after all if the extreme gait from extreme angulation is beneficial to herding as I have heard showline people say so many times....then it stands to reason there is a place and example to support this supposition. Germany has the trials and the dogs of this type....do the facts support the supposition???

 

Here is a dog owned by Nikon's breeder. She is a 12 time HGH, and also a BSZS herding class Siegerin. Before she was sold, she was Karl Fuller's favorite dog, and he still herds daily. She's also SchH trained; I've never seen her on sheep, just doing SchH.

I'm new to this conformation/angulation thing, so maybe you guys can comment and fill me in? Where does this dog fit in?

 

Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1Ceph, lets stay with your logic....in Germany they have the Herding championships and there are plenty of dogs in close proximity that are extremely angulated.....should we not see a lot of these dogs participating in these championships.....after all if the extreme gait from extreme angulation is beneficial to herding as I have heard showline people say so many times....then it stands to reason there is a place and example to support this supposition. Germany has the trials and the dogs of this type....do the facts support the supposition???

I'm not sure you're understanding what I'm saying and I know I don't understand what you're asking. Would you mind rephrasing for me? I'd like to answer the question properly

 

Lies

This was his best bitch VA3 Xitta vom Kirschental SchH3/FH/HGH/IP3 Kkl 1 born : 29. May 1978.
And the one that he is most proud of, has talked many times about in different Articles.

Note: the backhand!!

My Deejay has her in his 7th (7,7 - 7) all to Uran.

 

Nice!

By "favorite dog" I meant at the time she was purchased. Nikon's breeder goes to his house to see him and pick dogs. Nikon's dam is Kirschental and Karl helped pick the sire when she visited Germany with the dog. I believe his wife told her if it were only up to Karl, he'd never sell a dog and they would be overrun with dogs.

 

From the "Zwinger vom Kirschental" web-site History Page.

Quote: "Xitta" was a pure working dog with the sheep, when I presented her for the first time at the HZS, where she achieved V4 in the GHKL. At the evaluation, quote the Bundeszuchtwart, Hermman Martin: " I would have placed this dog VA, had she also had a SchH title, not just the HGH." Thereupon, I had Edzard Müller train "Xitta" through SchH3 IPO3 FH. The following year, "Xitta" achieved VA3. As much time was spent for competitions and shows, I was not able to breed "Xitta" as much as I would have liked to.

She did, however, produce outstanding progeny in each of her litters. Her first litter was out of "Argus von Aducht", which produced the HGH Sieger "Ux vom Kirschental".

Her most successful breeding was to "Uran vom Wildsteiger Land", producing the Worldsieger "Eiko vom Kirschental" (VA 1986-89).

This breeding was repeated twice, producing another successful litter with 5 males (Vagus, Valand, Vasall, Vido and Vopo) and 5 females (Valli, Vilma and Viva). The whole litter, some also abroad (USA, Sweden and Australia) were used for breeding with much success.

 

I read that long ago, but always wondered about the comment:

" I would have placed this dog VA, had she also had a SchH title, not just the HGH."

Why does the SchH title negate the VA rating?

 

I think he's saying the opposite. NOT having the SchH title, but having just the HGH, negated the VA.

 

Ah, OK. My eyes deceive me! I was confused b/c when I look her up she did have the title(s).

 

For judging purposes the HGH title is equal to a SChH title but some judges do not know this, forget it, or discount it.

My beautiful Faye vom Kirschental was indeed one of Karl's favorites. I think it is safe to assume that after breeding 55 plus years that you will have many "favorites."

Faye's dam, Jassie vom Kirschental, was another favorite of Karl's. They both go back to Xitta v Kirschental through the mother line.