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Anne......then you have been completely wrong in what you think my beliefs & ideas are.. from the beginning..
I have show dogs whom are titled & can compete in the ring....because I ENJOY the venue....it will always be "my icing on the cake". I breed dogs that can & do conform to the requirements of the breed.......at least this has always been my goal.
I ENJOY certain venues, but I have never stated that they are the end all requirements for this breed.....they are simply choices and personal goals that I choose to make my own.
As I have always stated....a good dog is a good dog period.
I personally believe that this breed should be capable of doing what it was bred to do.....are ALL puppies and dogs created equal??...of course not.
I appreciate learned knowledge from ALL people...and I may agree or not...but I still respect their opinions.
If one breeds dogs, and makes it their personal goal to do such... that can be used as Service K9s, Police K9s or Herding Dogs..and enjoy the sport venues....they can be justified as good breeders on my list.....no matter what bloodlines they may be born from.
Respectfully,
Robin
 
I think the point is that a German shepherd - at least the dogs some of us remember - did it all, willingly, and was easy to handle because they had inate abilities in all the areas; not just one or two specific talents.

Many dogs today are "trained" to perform a task, years ago they did the task for the love of it and expected no rewards and were genetically programed to do a multitude of services/work. The basic instinct and genetic make-up of those dogs were/are much different than a majority of the German shepherds we see today.

If the only thing a particular German shepherd dog can do is bite a sleeve or look good in a show-ring, is it a good representation of the breed? And if a dog is titled as a World Champion but dies at age 7, is it breed worthy? Today, many breeders and lines are so narrow focused and genetically deficient that we have lost all the other characteristics and genetics that made this breed what it was. JMO
 
I have no PM's from anyone......
The position of judging who & what is deemed "qualified" as a good breeder and GSD dog is not the "right" of any chosen few...
Each person has their own ideas and agenda in what they do and hold dear....
My question is a simple one......"who are these breeders and dogs" that are held to the standard of being the true GSD of today?.....and whom qualifies to appoint them as such??
If we ALL believe as breeders, trainers owners.. etc... that WE are striving to produce & promote the best breedings & dogs....who has the right to say different?

Again...perhaps, my question & wording is not being understood correctly.....?
I don't remember anyone saying that they had the right to deem what is qualified as a good breeder or dogs. I do remember people quote/repeating, citing, reiterating, things like the standard, the legacy, and even the founder as a basis for review of dogs and breeding practices. With the views I am hearing, why have a standard??? Afterall, most everybody breeding IS striving to produce and promote the best dogs and who is to say different?
I will conclude this dialogue with these thoughts. You really want to know about the German Shepherd breeding practices of today?
Well....ask instructors of seeing-eye schools, ask instructors of police/military academies, ask people that really do herding, ask Judges of Group competitions in all breed shows, and I believe you will hear a consistent theme. Now if the practitioners of the vocations that the dog was made to work in, says it is diffcult to find a good one anymore, then you can always blame their opinions on them probably having been influenced by Cliff in his appointed role. Peace!
 
Doc...let me answer your question truthfully...."Yes" if the world champion dies at the age of 7..AND produced many excellent dogs while being alive.....yes it was breed worthy.
Every living creature dies.....what it has left to the world is it's legacy.
A 7 year old dog that dies of cancer...or a tragic accident, a rare (non genetic) disease...can still himself, be an excellent producer for the breed.
That would be the opposite of a dog that lived itself to the age of 13, who produced temperamentally weak, dysplastic, unhealthy offspring....
ALL dogs are "trained" to perform tasks...whether they enjoy the task or not.
Biting a sleeve or running a ring...does not make the dog breed worthy.....but a dog that is incapable of doing anything isn't either.
I actually agree with many of the comments directed by some in regards to the breed.....it has not been a "whole" breed in many years.
My lack of understanding or intolerance comes from those, whom believe that because one "chooses" enjoyment from specific venues....their dogs are inferior in respect to others.
I find it hypocritical to suggest that doing nothing is better than doing something....
I respect many people's opinions, including Anne, Cliff, Chris, Holland..etc...etc....but I will always be a person who will question ideals and comments.....I have never been good as a follower....nor a hypocrite.
Respectfully,
Robin
 
We love this breed and will do anything to protect it.Remember the reasons we fell in love with this breed. We love the German Shepherd Dog because it is beautiful, loyal, energetic, playful, faithful, protective of its owner, strong, fast, athletic, just an all around great dog. No matter where the dog came from, what we train for, breed for, at the end of the day he/she is the German Shepherd Dog we love, enjoy, take pride, and enjoy. We all have different views of how the dog should look and what we like. We all have a different preference of what we look for in a dog.

For me, my dogs didn't come from breeders or anything. They weren't bred for a certain trait or anything. They aren't breeding quality, working quality, show quality. or anything of the sort. But one thing that is for sure, they are beautiful, loyal, energetic, playful, faithful, protective of my family and me, strong, athletic and all around great dogs. To me they are a German Shepherd and thats what they always will be. I love them for them, I love them because they are a breed I love, cherish, enjoy and take pride on owning them. I love them, they love me. Thats all that matters.

For them they don't care whether or not they are show quality, breeding quality, working quality, all that really matters to them is that you are happy and love them, if you are happy and love them, then they know they did their job. I am not saying no one here doesn't love their dog or dogs.

After all, a dog is a man or a woman's best friend.

Just my 2 cents.:);) And now I will go an hug my 2 beuatiful, loyal, athletic, protective, energetic, playful, faithful, and all around great German Shepherds.
 
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I have heard and seen enough in a variety of places involved with evaluating the dogs, that I can attest to Cliff's pervasive and overreaching influence! If it were not for him, I am sure all would be well and happiness would abound!:)
 
I have heard and seen enough in a variety of places involved with evaluating the dogs, that I can attest to Cliff's pervasive and overreaching influence! If it were not for him, I am sure all would be well and happiness would abound!:)
I have done good without Cliff.lol I don't know him. But I don't evaluate dogs.lol
 
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Doc...let me answer your question truthfully...."Yes" if the world champion dies at the age of 7..AND produced many excellent dogs while being alive.....yes it was breed worthy.
Every living creature dies.....what it has left to the world is it's legacy.
A 7 year old dog that dies of cancer...or a tragic accident, a rare (non genetic) disease...can still himself, be an excellent producer for the breed.
That would be the opposite of a dog that lived itself to the age of 13, who produced temperamentally weak, dysplastic, unhealthy offspring....
ALL dogs are "trained" to perform tasks...whether they enjoy the task or not.
Biting a sleeve or running a ring...does not make the dog breed worthy.....but a dog that is incapable of doing anything isn't either.
I actually agree with many of the comments directed by some in regards to the breed.....it has not been a "whole" breed in many years.
My lack of understanding or intolerance comes from those, whom believe that because one "chooses" enjoyment from specific venues....their dogs are inferior in respect to others.
I find it hypocritical to suggest that doing nothing is better than doing something....
I respect many people's opinions, including Anne, Cliff, Chris, Holland..etc...etc....but I will always be a person who will question ideals and comments.....I have never been good as a follower....nor a hypocrite.
Respectfully,
Robin
I choose not to be drug into your rant Robin. My comments are nothing more than statements based on experience, observation and study. If I hit a nerve or pushed a hot button, I'm sorry. My grand dad taught me this - if the shoe fits, wear it.

I respect breeders that have proven they can produce German shepherds that are versatile. By the way, I said nothing about "doing nothing is better than doing something". Those are your words, not mine.

I have a better understanding why this breed has declined over the past 35 years. Thanks for your comments.
 
I think that you forgot your meds?...
There is nothing in my post "directed" AT you personally...except an answer to the hypothetical question you stated....regarding a 7yr old dog...etc..
ACTUALLY....I was posting WHY I ask questions regarding statements and opinions.....perhaps you should have read better?!
I also stated that because I am not a hypocrite NOR follower....I ask such questions and have such opinions.
AGAIN...let me state factual...."Many posters whether this forum or others, will comment about venues or services being worthless...but their dogs themselves do nothing."....hence the comment: "I find it hypocritical to suggest doing nothing is better than doing something"....
I am confident with my own dogs...they can and do perform mutiple tasks and venues....as many other breeders dogs do also.
I do not agree or simply "not" ask questions & debate people, just because I may respect them or not....again, not a follower....nor do I feel the need to "fit" in.
I think YOU had a nerve hit?!

So..understand what you may....no nerve could be hit...and the shoe can't fit.
 
I also wanted to make a point to say....IF I had directed anything to you Doc or anyone else personally.....I am completely self assured enough to make it noted as such.
Robin
 
General reminder to please keep this civil and impersonal.

Admin Lisa

******
 
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Lisa,
I guess because I decided (against my better judgement) to post...asking questions and being the "odd ball in"....it became a "personal" conflict to some.
..when someone does not agree with the majority, they are "troublesome", go against the grain, or are aggressively commented to....(it becomes a hostile envirement)......what a shame...
I'll continue to refrain from commenting, requesting answers & asking questions.....after all...I don't want to rain on any-one's parade.
Please carry on with your topic....
 
Robin, that was a "general" reminder meaning a reminder for everyone. You need to not take everything written as being personal and directed at you. :)

Admin Lisa

*****
 
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Holland, no problem. It is one of the best breed books ever written. It deals with issues of health, structure, temperament, size, color, and everything else you could imagine. This book written in the 1920's correctly describes and explains what will happen to the breed when certain mindsets and practices prevail. The book is scarily prophetic in terms of breeding practices that will be detrimental to the breed (in detail), and then implores responsible breeders to not let these practices and attitudes take root. Once read objectively, it crystalizes many things about the breed and enlightens as to why certain things are so persistent.(Such as color, size, ears, temperament, structure,etc).
In the end I equate it to the "good Book" of the breed. For the serious breeders it provides guidance to ensure that we don't lose our way. JMO
Chris: As I have said on many occaisions, a litter of German Shepherds should have pups that are capable of doing anything from therapy, to family, to police, to herding. The litters I breed produces pups that have that potential. You do too, as Jane's dog is testament to. It is simply a mindset of breeding for mind over matter and making compensations immediately when you see something is not as strong as it should be. It also requires indepth knowledge of the abilities and capabilites of this breed and a dogged determination to uphold all of them regardless of our likes or dislikes.
Many many breeders still do it, but it is becoming infrequent I admit. But the beauty of a noble, courageous , incorruptible German Shepherd is a treasure of lifelong satisfaction that is worth continuing to produce, and sustaining the scorn or lack of knowledge of those who don't or won't. JMO
Can't say I disagree with your goals for the GSD breed, of course. But I probably would doubt the probability of achieving it or even if it is a realistic goal.

If I read your message right, we should be able to take any puppy (if the litter is bred properly) from a litter and train them to be a seeing eye dog and a littermate to be a military K9, a third a police dog, a fourth a Sch, a fifth a family pet, the sixth a S&R dog, and the last one a hunting dog such as a pointer. And these picks can be random - we do not need to test the puppies for special characteristics IF they are all proper GSD's as has been described above.

Did I understand your position correctly?

BTW, I didn't see anything in the above (might have missed it) about the correct looks or conformation of the GSD. Is this also a goal of your breeding so that all the dogs also LOOK like they are supposed to according to the standard?
 
You specified 4 traits you see as being different, so I'll address those.

Protectiveness. Is there actually anyone out there who thinks a GSD, any GSD regardless of its job, shouldn’t be protective???? If there is, I would certainly suggest that person look to another breed entirely. Certainly in today’s world, this is often considered a bad thing. There was a time when people naturally expected dogs, particularly of breeds like the GSD, to be protective and had no problem with it. Today you might be getting a nasty letter from a lawyer if your dog looks at someone funny, or makes them sneeze or sheds a piece of dog hair on them. Times sure have changed….. And many SD organizations have gone along with the PC idea that people have a right not to be offended or intimidated or scared, no matter how unreasonable, and thus moved away from GSDs lest they scare the public. That is a problem with the world, not the dog. Personally, if I were disabled in any fashion and that might interfere with my ability to spot and respond to a threat to my person, especially if my disability might increase my chances of being a target by making me appear as easy pickin’s to the bad guys, I would want my SD to be able to make up for that. I know many disabled persons who feel the same and will choose the GSD over the Labradoodle specifically for its better deterrent value and protective instinct.

Sharpness. This refers to the trigger threshold for recognizing a threat, and going into defense. Every GSD, regardless of its vocation, should have the ability to recognize a true threat if one presents itself. A “sharp” dog is a dog with a low trigger threshold. While there are some jobs where this might be appropriate, there are not many and I would categorize them as the exceptions that could be considered specialized. Clearly, a seeing eye dog should not be sharp. But then neither should most PPDs. After all, what use is a PPD if you can’t have the dog with you? How is it to protect you if it is stuck in crate or kennel or car lest it be going off on innocent people? More “specialized” PPDs peddled by certain types of (quite often questionable at best) personal protection trainers often do put emphasis on sharpness. But most people wanting a PPD want a dog who can also be a family dog and who can accompany them when they are out and about. If it can't do that, the dog can afford no protection whatsoever. But of course they don't want to be getting sued every week either, so the dog must be sound and stable around people in general and only react if there is a true threat, or if cued to do so (through training) by the owner. A high degree of sharpness is actually undesirable for most PPDs.

Hardness. Hardness merely refers to a dog's resiliency to negative experiences. A hard dog is one who does not shut down, avoid, or have his attitude significantly diminished when he encounters an aversive. Whether as PPD or seeing eye dog, I certainly would not want to trust my safety and well being to a dog who was soft and easily lost focus, purpose and a willingness to keep working, and I can't imagine anyone would.

Defense Drive. Do you understand what defense drive is? Simply, it is a form of reactive aggression that comes into play when the dog's fight/flight response is triggered. The dog with defense drive will fight first, the dog without it will flee and go into avoidance. Different dogs will have different trigger thresholds for perception of a threat (see sharpness above), but once that threshold is reached ANY and EVERY GSD should show strong defense drive in response to the threat, and sustainability of that drive until the threat has gone away. How can anyone say a GSD, regardless of its job, does not need defense drive? That is the same as saying that when a GSD encounters a threat it should turn tail and run. I don't think anyone, anywhere, would say that is an appropriate reaction for a GSD, I don't care what its job is!
Chris - thanks (and I mean it!) thanks for a mostinformative explanation of the above terms! best I have seen in a very long time.

However, I must say that I do disagree a little about the need and esp. the degree needed of some of these in some GSD's depending on the job of the dog. For example I would not want a very sharp hard dog with very high defense drive for either a therapy dog or a family pet. I think that would be a disaster waiting to happen esp. if the family were not very experienced in handling this type of dog.

Now maybe some people would say that then they should not get a GSD to be a pet or a therapy or that the Seeing Eye Institute should not use GSD's in their work.

If that is the case then we are saying that the GSD should be a restricted breed (specialized?) and should only be used for certain duties?

What I am suggesting is that there may be somewhat specialized lines(?) of GSD's who have had an emphasis put on certain characteristics in their breeding. As long as there is an adherence to the standard generally I don't think that this is such a bad thing if it allows us to have GSD's doing a great job in many fields.

In other words, is it a terrible situation if we find that not every puppy in a litter turns out not to be greatly suited to be a Sch or protection dog or for that matter to be a HgH candidate?
 
I think any dog can be great at something if their owner is willing to get involved too. But just because the dog comes from lines of excellent Schutzhund parents doesn't necessarily mean he will be a great Schutzhund dog too, he may be great at something else like agility or something.
 
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I think any dog can be great at something if their owner is willing to get involved too. But just because the dog comes from lines of excellent Schutzhund parents doesn't necessarily mean he will be a great Schutzhund dog too, he may be great at something else like agility or something.
Very true, but if both parents and a few of the grandparents and other relatives were great at Sch, the odds are higher that he will be great at Sch than another dog without relatives that were good at Sch.

That is, we would believe this if we believe that the ability to do great at Sch is influenced by the genes contained in the individual dog. And this may also be true for jobs other than Sch as well.
 
Very true, but if both parents and a few of the grandparents and other relatives were great at Sch, the odds are higher that he will be great at Sch than another dog without relatives that were good at Sch.

That is, we would believe this if we believe that the ability to do great at Sch is influenced by the genes contained in the individual dog. And this may also be true for jobs other than Sch as well.
There is always(if not always most of the time) the one that stands out or excels in another type of dog sport or competition.
 
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Can't say I disagree with your goals for the GSD breed, of course. But I probably would doubt the probability of achieving it or even if it is a realistic goal.

If I read your message right, we should be able to take any puppy (if the litter is bred properly) from a litter and train them to be a seeing eye dog and a littermate to be a military K9, a third a police dog, a fourth a Sch, a fifth a family pet, the sixth a S&R dog, and the last one a hunting dog such as a pointer. And these picks can be random - we do not need to test the puppies for special characteristics IF they are all proper GSD's as has been described above.

Did I understand your position correctly?

BTW, I didn't see anything in the above (might have missed it) about the correct looks or conformation of the GSD. Is this also a goal of your breeding so that all the dogs also LOOK like they are supposed to according to the standard?
Codmaster, I will respond to the above and then I leave you folks on the subject of the breed to your bliss and contentment.
I breed litters that have dogs that are capable of and do become Therapy, military, law enforcement , herding, and family pets. Have been doing it for years. Whether or not you believe this or think it is possible is actually of little concern to me as it doesn't change the fact. Dogs with good nerve can do almost anything if trained...several of us have said the same thing and you chose to question this. That's your preogative, and we both can go on living in separate worlds.
BTW, A dog I bred this year (sable working type), just won the Southeastern Regional USA conformation show in the 9 to 12 month class. I don't know if that is an acceptable level of structure for you, but it reflects the type of dogs I breed. I'm aware you may find that hard to believe, but again it is a fact and the dog has faultless temp to boot!!
No more from me on breed type, it is what it is and if people don't see it or won't acknowledge it continue in bliss...peace!
 
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