I'm gonna be honest, none of that sounds "Alpha" to me. It sounds insecure with a lack of leadership.

A true "alpha" dominant dog, does NOT need to posture to this level.

My mom had a true "alpha" dog. This dog actually ignored the ridiculous shenanigans and posturing if most dogs, unless the truly challenged her, the she stood her ground and finished it. She was confident enough in herself that she had no need to posture. Zero need to "be big dog on the block". She would not start a fight. But she would finish it. She carried herself with confidence.

 

A lot of submissive dogs look to mine as a leader. They will often lick his face which in dog language means that the dog doing the licking is showing him respect. Granted mine sometimes acts like an **** . He sometimes bullies dogs who are very submissive.

The last few sentences you said all apply to my dog.

 

Dominance Theory has been widely debunked in the last decade...

 

He doesn't sound like an "alpha" to me. He sounds more like an insecure bully with poor dog manners.

And I fail to see how counter surfing could be considered a form of "dominance". ANY dog can be an opportunistic vulture, be they "dominant" or "submissive".

 

i never said his dog to dog manners are great. His mounting stopped, and most dominant dogs see him with respect, when he fights it's rarely him who's the instigator.

He is a bully and I'm trying to work on that, but insecure is hardly a word I'd use to describe him.

 

Most dogs I come accross I notice are Submissive, to both people and dogs. However, there's the occassional Alpha dogs and I notice these dogs either go two ways. They are either very well behaved, confident and have a vicious side, or they are very aggressive, untrained mongrels who are out of control. My dog here is an Alpha dog.

My dog Lobo, is a rescue, former stray, and judging by the fact that he's housebroken, means he was abandoned. When I met him he was friendly, loving, and gentle, but during the third day, he showed his darker side.

He consistently tried to mount me, barked aggressively when I didn't give him what he wanted, mounted other dogs regardless of gender, and tried to claim me from a date who came over.

It wasn't easy, but I was able to stop all these behaviors. By neutering him, establishing dominance over him, training, patience, and a spray water bottle. Granted him mounting other dogs continued after being neuteres but it eventually stopped.

Now he does every now and then try to establish dominance by occassionally eating off the table/counter when my back is turned. Overall he is a well behaved dog now, and sees me as a leader. But when it comes to other dogs, it's a different story.

Generally he gets along with most dogs, but when meeting other Alphas, it goes three ways. They team up and form a pack depending on how many dogs are present, either respect each other's space, or it turms into an ugly dog fight, usually with my dog coming out on top as he does not take fights lightly. He doesn't start fights btw.

Worth noting in dog parks my dog is usually "The Sheriff." Whenever a dog fight breaks out he runs over to break it up. While there is a "coolness" factor to having an Alpha dog it has its downsides. Harder to train and they seem to get in more problems with other dogs.

This has me thinking, is being an Alpha something that dogs inherit or is it learned?

I'll be honest with you, most of that stuff does not at all mean alpha. Maybe I'm wrong I don't know your dog and never saw it but this is a good video that shows alpha behavior in 8 week old pups. Watch the whole video, it's fascinating to see how what you may think is alpha behavior (bullying) is actually not. The beginning is more of an introduction so if you want skip to around the 2:50 mark.

 

I won't say Alpha but I will use leader. I have a pretty big pack with a bunch of independent dogs. I would say my two females and my oldest golden are the true leaders. I'll go one step further and say the two females don't ever start a fight but they will finish it, but as I watch my dogs I am leaning more towards my older golden as the true leader. All the dogs respect him, I have never seen a dog even try to mess with him as an adult, he did get attacked as a pup but it never affected him. He does his thing and minds his business. He is my most obedient dog, never gives me any issues and just never feels the need to fight about anything. I think other dogs sense that and bypass him.

A true leader doesn't need to prove himself, get into any scuffles or anything like that. They have something other dogs can sense.

 

I won't say Alpha but I will use leader. I have a pretty big pack with a bunch of independent dogs. I would say my two females and my oldest golden are the true leaders. I'll go one step further and say the two females don't ever start a fight but they will finish it, but as I watch my dogs I am leaning more towards my older golden as the true leader. All the dogs respect him, I have never seen a dog even try to mess with him as an adult, he did get attacked as a pup but it never affected him. He does his thing and minds his business. He is my most obedient dog, never gives me any issues and just never feels the need to fight about anything. I think other dogs sense that and bypass him.

A true leader doesn't need to prove himself, get into any scuffles or anything like that. They have something other dogs can sense.

I tend to like dominant dogs. I tend to keep dominant ones. I don't tend to have fights in my house. Like everything else, there's levels. It's kind of like having a group of type A people all living together. I am the head leader and that's not disputed. Within the dogs the one who has final say over everything is the little toy poodle who is 12 years old that I took in. He walked in the house and owned it. No one challenged him. Have you ever been somewhere and someone walked in, not the biggest person or the strongest looking one, but everyone knew he wasn't to be messed with? That's alpha, top leader material.


You're dog sounds like he is a leader, but not the top one. If he meets another dog not as strong, he will lead. But he's not a top leader and so will be sometimes challenged. Difficulty with training, stubbornness, etc., is not different with dominant dogs or a dog that's a leader as llombardo explained. I like that explanation. If a dog sees you as the leader, he wants to please you. Insecurity on the dog's part or the owners part can make a dog difficult to train. It sounds like you had to prove your leadership with your dog and you did.


To avoid your dog getting into a fight you need to watch his body language and the dogs he around. One day he will meet a dog he won't be able to win against. Or if he gets into a pack fight you could lose him. Make sure you have a solid recall on him. It sounds like you did a good job on raising a more difficult puppy.

 

interesting conversation here

 

I've owned one truly "alpha" dog in my life. He didn't feel the need to run over to every fighting or roughhousing dog. If he felt it was getting out of hand, all it too was a look and the dogs would quiet down.

Alpha dogs don't throw their weight around or feel the need to mount or really show their dominance in any way. The closest I've ever seen him coming to physically stopping a potential dog fight was to simply stand up. We were out at a public event and a stray dog kept coming up to the booth and trying to instigate problems with some of the club member's dogs. The first time, he back off when Rayden looked at him. The second time he was intent on stalking one of the CKS. Rayden started to stand up, looking solidly at the stray. Stray dog crouched down in a submissive posture, backed away and didn't come back.

Otherwise, he was totally chill about everything.

 

So I don't really use terminology like alpha or dominant. My old male who has crossed the bridge now was special, though. He might be what people call alpha? My sense is not truly alpha if there is such a thing but he definitely had a special way with other dogs.

I remember one boarder I had was a little 40lb ego on steroids, running around saying "I am the man! I am the man!" My dog's response was "sure buddy, you can be the man"....like it was a joke. He thought the little guy was so stupid, you could just tell, but he had no need to put him in his place or anything else, stuff like that just didn't bother him. He would never be submissive to these dogs he just couldn't be bothered to get into petty stuff.

I never saw him show fear, be intimidated, or be a bully. He would tone himself down to make frightened dogs feel safe. He was enormously tolerant of puppies.

In all the years I had him the one time I saw him semi throw his weight around was on a walk in Florida we were approached by a big male bully cross running loose. I had 3 dogs on leashes, my female ahepherd, female lab mix, and Ruger. This dog ran right up to us and I was uprepared and he wasn't obviously aggressive to start so I let them greet hoping we could just be on our way. It started okay but then I saw his intent change toward the females. It was about to go south big time. Ruger had watched all this go on and now he suddenly stepped in, body checked that dog hard, and as the intruder flew back from the body check Ruger snapped his teeth in his face. They squared off a d had a very breif staring contest and then the loose dog turned and was like "alright dude, they are your bitches. Go in peace" and he walked away.

Ruger was such a boss that day. There was not a doubt in my mind that what he said was "I dont want to fight you and we dont have to fight, but if you try to mess with these girls I will rip your throat out."

He never started a fight with another dog....even in that instance he could have gone in guns blazing but instead he gave a big threat and the other dog respected him. He was the perfect dog to live with my super bitchy bully female in her heyday because he never became intimidated by her but he never went to the many fights she invited him to, either.

He was generally friendly and laid back with people except in the rare instance he felt we were threatened and then he became a whole different dog. A very serious look in his eye that would make your blood run cold if it were pointed at you.

He was a dog willing to defend himself if he thought you were going to hurt him (think vet procedures), but if a vet with good bedside manner asked nicely he would tolerate almost anything if you showed him a lot of respect. Try to push him around unecessarily and the response was not good. I carried I muzzle for those types of vets and went all over town looking for ones who would start on the right foot with him so he didn't have to be muzzled.

I never saw him afraid, he was never rude or pushy with me.

All I can say for sure about him is that he was one of a kind and I wish so much he was still here with me.

 

Humping is typically play or stress induced, especially with a dog in a new environment. It happens a lot with insecure board and trains.

Counter surfing is natural behavior. It doesn't indicate any type of status seeking behavior.

Check out this video by Michael Ellis. Skip to 3:50 if you want just the dominant dog part of the video.

 

My dog is drawn to other dogs, not dog neutral. He is a very high drive dog, confident and bold. I don't consider him top dog but I do think he is very rank driven. He wants to be top dog. It is his default to seek this with other dogs at first in raukess play. This combined with the attribute that when he gets amped up for the game... any game, his stress/arousal/lets-get-going-amped-up-ness if combined with frustration (can't or don't know how to get what I want now) can be externalized into humping, pushiness, obstinance, and if a dog snaps at him, the fight. So the.. oh he will not start the fight but he will gladly join in. He does start it though with the increasing stress with his way of being in the world..

I think of him as as having a high drive, a fearlessness, but also a tension/stress that drives controlling behaviors in the pack. With good training, and thank god I found a super trainer that gets this kind of dog, I worked hard to develop a good working relationship with him, and hence obedience and learned the great importance of not increasing frustration. My trainer always says... "crystal clear" communication with this dog. I wonder sometimes how this dog would have turned out with the old dominate and be alpha.

I think with my dog, with obedience (and managing frustration) on him, he looks alpha like. When he knows the game, he is on, on, on and could care less about other dogs.

Anyway, just first coffee thoughts. I don't buy the rigid notion of the alpha dog.... I think it is just too fluid to define in such rigid terms.

 

Are you referring to your dutchie?
Over the years I have seen many dogs and I think I can spot an alpha when I see one. They usually have a calm-like demeanor where a supposed stressful situation doesn't send them off the rails like it would most dogs. Often-times a "look" is all it takes to get another dog to back off.
Others have said there is no such thing as alpha but I think they don't understand that we are not referring to a dog-human relationship, we are referring to a dog-dog relationship. A wolf pack definitely has a hierarchy where the alpha leads the pack, eats first, has pick of the female and so on.

 

I prefer to use a honey badger paradigm but even that one has its limits to usefulness. A dog is a honey badger if it is willing to go through a lot of crap to get what it wants. Honey badgers are notorious for eating honey from bee hives and tolerating the hundreds of stings because the payoff is "worth it." The more honey badger your dog is the harder a correction it will take to dissuade them from an action they want to take, the more pushy they will be with other dogs, people, or other animals. Dogs that are less honey badgery will tend to yield to them because its easier to go with the flow than not.

Problem you run into is sometimes the dog is that way by nature and sometimes it is taught to honey badger because the owner or handler is inconsistent, unclear, gives up, or has built up a huge reward history in particular areas. So is it because the dog is a genuine honey badger or is the owner just a crap handler?

 

I love this analogy so much.

I think my dog is a honey badger. Doing whatever she wants is self-reinforcing to a fair extent. I wouldn't characterize her as pushy at all with other dogs/animals. But she will push boundaries with humans if she thinks she can get away with it. She will do so sweetly, with a grin and a tail wag, and she'll have the human convinced she's a doll while they do her bidding, but she will do it. It's sad and hilarious all at once to watch my dad (nicest man in the world and the dog knows it) try to handle her.

 

I owned an alpha gsd yes and is a very silent inner strength other dogs just knew to give him space. I remember any dog that approached or was loose off leash and ran over to us got one whiff and walked away. I always felt he gave off some invisible musky odor or a overflow of testerone that leaked from his skin. Karat stood his ground and never had a conflict. Extremely disciplined dog. Never had to correct him or brush up on any training. I knew nothing then either. One time he was on the couch -which I never saw him on - he saw me and flew off the couch so fast. Honestly I tried to get him on the couch to snuggle it was a no go. We kept our garbage can out he never went through it we never had to put it up or worry he would go through it. I would rake the leaves in the front yard he would remain loose off leash- never once tempted to be more then 4 feet away from me no matter what came down the block.

 

In all the 30+ years of having dogs, I had the pleasure of having one Alpha dog. He was a true one (and was a whippet!). He integrated all the foster dogs that entered the household, never picked a fight and only once in his entire 14 years of age put a Giant Schnauzer in place who ambushed him. I never saw that dog come either. It was a short fight and none were injured. Many adolescent dogs ran up to him and all he had to do was standing square with attitude like,"Really?" with" that look". That was enough for the youngsters to back off like "Uhmm, what was it that I was going to do?" He was an asset in my classes, especially letting him mingle with pups.
One scary moment was when he encountered another Alpha dog that I had known and observed (A Rottweiler). They briefly stood eye -to- eye, then both slowly and simultaneously turned away from each other and thus avoiding a fight, not even marking. They were both off leash and some distance away from us owners and no one interfered. I was relieved but then very impressed by their willingness to avoid a fight.
All others I call social climbers/bullies. I have had these as well. I don't like to avoid the term 'Alpha' but it needs to be clear what is meant by it.
BTW: I don't like to call owners 'Alpha". When people label themselves as Alphas, they usually need some help with their dogs.
Alpha dogs are amazing to watch and it is a privilege to have one. Still don't know how to pick them from a litter though.

 

Still don't know how to pick them from a litter though.

This is what I was going to ask. So I'll ask a follow up question. At which point did you or the others who have had alpha dogs know. Or at which point did they start to display the traits that made you feel they were alpha dogs.

 

Lol! Max is a huge honey badger with a belly full of honey. I would like to think it is genetic nature as I know he was much like this the moment he walked his little fancy paws through my house. They are the most work but another reason why I feel so bonded with Max. I have a video of Max at 4 days after we got him - he was chewing the Christmas jingle bell off the tree skirt. I told him no and took his toys out. He went back over to the skirt and I repeated again corrected redirecting with his toy. He then picked up his toy went back over to the tree skirt with his back facing me flopped down and looked as if he was chewing his toy. I went over and to take a look as I no fool. And he was chewing the jingle bell and not his toy- no surprise. His toy was over the jingle bell. Max really has not changed is why I love him much.

 

I have a dominant dog. Or so he likes to think. Until I get mad because he didn't take the garbage out.

 

I've had one true alpha dog, a collie bitch. She was a dream dog, easy to train and a joy to live with. I miss her to this day. She made me a very unwelcome person at a Rottweiler Club as when we finished training and the dogs played, the rotties would look to her for guidance and several would go belly up to her. Needless to say the men who owned the rotties were not appreciative of their big bad rotties going belly up to a small rough collie bitch.


While my current leader is the elderly toy poodle, he is not an alpha dog, he's just higher in leadership skills. Should I bring in a dog with high ranking drive I would have to be very vigilant.


Asking to identify one as a puppy is like asking a preschool or kindergarten teacher which child will be the greatest leader. I can tell you which one has the potential, which one might be, but you can't just point and say 'that one' at so young an age. It develops as they grow, dogs or people. It will be one that is confident as a puppy or young child. So it's more traits at a young age.

 

I loathe the term alpha, but I too have had those special dogs that didn't need to vie for place as top dog. They just WERE top dog.

A collie/shepherd/rott mix and a shepherd/rott/pit/chow mix.

Same as the other posters. Fantastic dogs. Never started anything, incredible at diffusing other dogs without direct confrontation, and on the rare occasions they had to throw their weight around it was over.

The first was more likely to challenge a human and the second wanted nothing to do with the 2 legged folk. But once trained they were absolutely phenomenal dogs to live with.

 

I have watched a few documentarys on wolves. There was always an alpha male. Doesn't someone have to lead the pack. Just like lions. If there was no alpha what are the new young guys coming in fighting for.

 

Well, actually male lions don't lead their prides, that falls onto the senior lioness. For the most part males just protect against other males...

Anywho, David Mech explains it better than I could.

One of the outdated pieces of information is the concept of the alpha wolf. "Alpha" implies competing with others and becoming top dog by winning a contest or battle. However, most wolves who lead packs achieved their position simply by mating and producing pups, which then became their pack. In other words they are merely breeders, or parents, and that's all we call them today, the "breeding male," "breeding female," or "male parent," "female parent," or the "adult male" or "adult female."

Wolf News and Info - L. David Mech

I mean yes there are wolves that lead packs - the parents. But the actual dynamics of packs are very different then what most people believe.

And wolf pack dynamics are very different than the dynamics of feral dog packs, and very very differebt than inter species human - dog packs.

 

hey are incredible. I mis him every day and it has been abut 4 years since he died. He never challenged me, we were room mates and truly best friends. It will be hard to beat him in this.

 

Does a dog with a napoleon complex count? She is hilarious with the new pups growling if they so much as look or come near her wanting to play!

 

I had an 'alpha' bitch, years ago; An Irish Wolfhound of all things --- you know, one of those gentle giants. (I don't much care for the term 'alpha,' either and much preferred to call her a dominant hound.). Which she was in spades and also why she washed out of her first home. I got her from the breeder, as a rising yearling, when the original owners returned her because she was "too much dog." Nonsense. Easiest animal to train I've ever had. She wasn't difficult, she was just very, very clear about things, people and other dogs. LOL. I always thought she was some kind of genetic throwback to what IWs were originally. Perfectly polite (but not always friendly) with strangers and you could trust her with an infant. She'd even lay down to meet smaller, nervous dogs. I could and did take her everywhere. Perfect manners. But (!) she could break up a threatening dog fight --- merely by walking into the middle of a snarling, swirling mass and staring down the combatants. Saw her do that a few times (too far away to intervene quickly) and I still get goosebumps thinking about it. On two separate occasions, she also took down a man who was threatening me. Different men BTW, both strangers. Once, late a night in a barn and, years later, during a late night walk on a quiet residential street. Didn't hurt either of them. Just put them on the ground and held them until I called her off. (One soiled himself which still gives me chuckles). No, I never trained her (or any of my dogs) to do that. That's just who and what she was. Which is a rather long-winded way of saying it's in the genes and, by extension, in the character of the dog. I don't believe you can instill it with training. Shape it, if it's there, but instill it? No, I don't think so. I also think that too often we confuse anxiety/nervousness/fear and aggression. Neither is desirable behavior and both can be problematic for the dog and the owner. So, be very careful what you wish for....

Aly

 

I love the stories about Alpha dogs. They are all similar. Wish they would live forever, our teachers. I still cannot recall his age when I became aware of his uniqueness.
His breeder told me that he was the most independent pup who was not very interested in playing with the others. Is that a reliable cue how to spot them in a litter? No idea.

 

It's almost like they have a strong sense of right and wrong.

A Robyn story....

We are at the dog park, not crowded at all-maybe 5 dogs. She was actively playing with all of them, no one arguing and everyone getting along-a beautiful sight. A father with 2 younger kids and a chihuahua come into the area by the pond where they swim. The dad was holding the dog and the dog was moving all over the place, not comfortable at all. The father decides to hold the chihuahua by the scruff over the water like he is going to drop him in. The dog is freaking out and starts whimpering. As I was about to say something because it was awful to watch, Robyn ran over to the guy and planted herself right in front of him and stared him down. She is tall and he was short. He decided pretty quick to stop what he was doing. Robyn walked him out and I'm not kidding, she stayed right on him and made sure he left. She never barked or growled, but she made sure he understood what she was doing. Just one of the many times that I've seen an animal that was smarter then a human.

 

She really helped that little dog but I personally would not have let her take that initiative.
I once saw the same situation in which two young mothers threw a JRT in the lake to have him swim. I asked if they taught their kids swimming like that and then they left.

 

It is almost more about social skills than anything else. Thst dog who knows just the right thing to do in any sodial situation. When to turn the other cheek, when to show teeth.

One thing is for sure, they are NOT the dog bullies. My female is one of those and she almost sighs with relief when there is a big strong male around to keep her in line LOL.

 

Another question. Can an alpha dog be turned scared and insecure from abuse sustained as a puppy. Either by an adult dog or a human.

 

Tannor was viciously attacked as a pup(4 months old) by an adult Rott. It did not affect him at all.