[Blanketback]

I think your puppy's growling because he's frustrated. He probably doesn't want to do OB while he's playing with the hula hoop. I had the same issue (not growling, because I wasn't correcting, but obvious frustration) when I tried to introduce OB routine into the flirt pole games. So compromise is in order: make the OB fun! You can still reinforce the stay command by not letting the puppy rush out the door until you use a release word. Teach the puppy 'drop it' and how to place toys in your hand - this is still training him, but it's way more fun for him. He should be having fun at his young age

 

[boomer11]

I'm sure that if you'd ever seen a dog trained by their methods, and a dog trained by newer, positive reinforcement methods work...you'd see the difference immediately.

100% agreed. If your dog was more mature then I'd see using a toy but at his age his drive isn't developed enough to truly want to work for a ball. Pups will be more motivated to work for food. I mean show me a video of a good trainer trying to train a pup with a toy?

Also every time you correct him you are killing drive. The toy gets less and less fun for him every time he's corrected.

 

[Bequavious]

Depends on your definition of successful. And in truth...I haven't seen anyone use those methods in a very very long time. There are a lot of stories that go around about the Monks and their dogs, some good, some bad. They got popular by writing those books, producing decent dogs (I personally know a one year old New Skete dog...not impressive).

Their methods are compulsion, which most will tell you is not the favored way to train a dog. If you're looking to do sport, or any higher level training/trialing with your pup, I would highly suggest you stop using those methods and read some other books of more recently successful trainers that are actually proven. Sorry but the monks don't trial their dogs, they don't test them, they don't show them. IMO...their methods are drive killing and are only considered successful because the dog becomes a piece of furniture that doesn't want to do anything that might cause a negative response...which is perfect for an American household who want a stuffed animal.

I'm sure that if you'd ever seen a dog trained by their methods, and a dog trained by newer, positive reinforcement methods work...you'd see the difference immediately.

Have you read the Monks books? I've only read the How to be Your Dog's Best Friend (revised and updated), but it's not solely compulsion and they don't break the dogs' spirit. The section about puppies was purely positive and they didn't say not to use food with adults, but just not to become dependent on it. I probably wouldn't use their methods to train a competition dog, because in competition you want the dog working in high drive. In real life however, a calmer state of mind is usually more desirable. You want your dog to happily obey you, but that can be achieved in a variety of ways.

They also really focus on a good solid relationship between the owner and dog, which I like and I think may be part of the problem in Mr. D's case. He's treating the puppy like an adult and it's causing confusion and maybe a little distrust. With puppies (and even adult dogs) I always first assume that if he isn't following my commands, he is confused or unfocused rather than assuming he's choosing to disobey me. Maybe he doesn't understand the exercise, maybe he's bored or distracted, maybe I was unclear. Any of these explanations give me a positive direction to move in, usually by backing up and breaking things down into smaller pieces or moving to a less distracting environment/higher reward/more energy from me,to make it easier for him to focus. The moment you decide the dog is deliberately disobeying you, you're much more likely to let anger ruin your training session. At least that has been my experience, but I tend to have a bit of a hot temper anyway


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[selzer]

Mostly I agree with everyone else, put the prong on the shelf for now.

It is ok to use a toy rather than treats if you intend to train that way, but you have to make that toy the biggest, bestest thing in the world for the puppy and only given to him while training to mark positives. Food rewards are simpler because you can vary them, you can give a little or a lot to mark a party for really getting something. And you can have high value treats as well as ordinary treats.

Treats are somthing that eventually you will phase out, maybe not completely. Lots of people continue to use treats when training new things. I can or not, just depends. I always praise when I treat, and eventually praise is enough to let the dog know he did the right thing, even if it is brand-new.

What I did not see anyone mention is this up-command, that you said is when you want him to jump. Why are you doing this with a 4 month old puppy. Let a puppy be a puppy. Let him run and play and jump. Do not force him to run or jump. His body is maturing, and shepherds, even working line dogs, are prone to hip, elbow, and back problems. Some of these are genetic. Some can be influenced by environment. I would not train any jumping with a youngster.

This should be fun for you and your puppy, if it is not, than something is wrong and that is often as not on the human end of the leash, after all we are asking a dog to live in a human world. If that isn't happening the way we want it, we need to try other methods to communicate with the dog.

I let my 4 month old pups just be puppies. I might sign them up for puppy class and take them once a week to the class and there we learn to sit and down, and we socialize with the other owners, we are introduced to the tunnel, and we keep things light and quickly move from one thing to another, without dwelling on anything too long. The rest of the week, I don't do any training. I let them play. I play with them. If house training is not complete, than I am very careful with them in the house to prevent accidents.

I think WL people are very careful not to push the youngsters into too much obedience too fast, and to play games that will bring out their drives like tug, and playing with a flirt pole. One of my buddies with WL dogs, waits until they are 10 months old, puts a prong on them, at that point, and does all their obedience training in a week. That works for him.

I don't use prong or e-collars, I stick with the martingales, and I don't push puppies too fast, we just take our time, and by the time they are 1 or 2 at the latest, they are behaved enought to earn an AKC title, and a CGC. Not everyone is willing to wait that long, and I get that. But my point is, your puppy is a baby, and he will become hard to handle, if you label him defiant, stubborn, and correct him for not being perfect.

 

[Lilie]

With puppies (and even adult dogs) I always first assume that if he isn't following my commands, he is confused or unfocused rather than assuming he's choosing to disobey me. Maybe he doesn't understand the exercise, maybe he's bored or distracted, maybe I was unclear.


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This ^^ is such a refreshing statement!!! Very rarely do I see that stated on this forum, but I suspect it reflects a HUGE precent of the training problems posted. Major Kudos to you!!!!

 

[martemchik]

Have you read the Monks books? I've only read the How to be Your Dog's Best Friend (revised and updated), but it's not solely compulsion and they don't break the dogs' spirit. The section about puppies was purely positive and they didn't say not to use food with adults, but just not to become dependent on it. I probably wouldn't use their methods to train a competition dog, because in competition you want the dog working in high drive. In real life however, a calmer state of mind is usually more desirable. You want your dog to happily obey you, but that can be achieved in a variety of ways.

Yes, I've read them. I read a bunch of them before I got my dog. One of the things I was interested in was their "puppy testing." You can look on this forum how people feel about their puppy test.

The truth is...even a slight bit of compulsion at 4 months old can break a dog's spirit and drive. It depends on the dog and how easily it can bounce back, but you can very quickly destroy a lot of its drive at that age. The monks do train pets...and its fine if that's what you want, but OP mentioned doing some sort of sport/work so my recommendation is not to use those methods. The fact is...none of us have any idea if they do or don't break the dog's spirit from reading a book. No one in their right mind is going to write, "we did this so we could break the dog's spirit and make it behave no matter what." But from what I've seen (and I started training my boy with compulsion) its very easy to destroy a dog's spirit with those methods.

I'm lucky that I have a pretty hard dog and it didn't crush his spirit. He still loves to work and I think I made the switch to positive methods early enough that it didn't affect him too much. I have no problem with how he works...but if I had started some drive building earlier, it would be even better. I've seen plenty of dogs that have been trained in the way my boy was (at the club I'm at) that have had their drive/spirit destroyed and can't even get excited about happy happy rally-o.

There's a lot of older books that talk about older methods that have no mention of the negative effects of those methods...does that make them not have any? For instance...Schutzhund: Theory and Training Methods by Susan Barwig is considered a very good book to read if you're interested in Schutzhund. But at this point I know of very few people that use many of the methods described in that book to teach some of the more advanced obedience.

 

[Cassidy's Mom]

Why am I not using food? Because I read a few books from the Monks of New Skete. I prefer Franklin not learn tricks for treats, but to understand fully and completely what is expected.

Yes, the Monks are very biased against using food in training. They are very old school, and although some people still feel that way, dog training has moved on leaps and bounds since then. I totally get that you want your dog to understand fully and completely what is expected of him, and not have to rely on having treats on hand in order for him to comply. But as others have pointed out, there is an error in your thinking. Using food in training, done right, will not create that reliance.

I used TONS of food when training my dogs from the time they came home as puppies. With Halo, Keefer, and Dena one thing I did heavily was to "capture" behaviors they offered up spontaneously, anything they did that I liked - looking at me, laying on the floor, coming towards me.....), marking it either verbally ("yes!") or with a clicker, and then giving a treat. I wasn't attempting to train any particular behavior, I wasn't giving a command (which they of course had not learned yet anyway), there was no "wrong" answer because I wasn't telling them to do anything in the first place. The more I reinforced these things by randomly rewarding them, the more my puppy offered them up. This was the foundation for "watch", and "come", and "down", and soon I was able to name these behaviors and put them on cue.

How successful was this technique? Well, we got Halo at 10 weeks old, and I started doing this several times a day, even with part of her lunch and dinner kibble - making her work for her meals. By her 2nd week of puppy class at 14 weeks old, she would lay on the floor, off leash in a room full of people and other puppies, (a HIGHLY distracting environment!) and stare at me, with a treat on the floor in front of her. She knew that remaining in a down and ignoring the food and looking at me instead would earn her a reward. Her attention was so good that I was stopped by a woman in the bathroom after class, who asked me how I got my puppy to be so focused. And she is STILL very focused, even though I don't need to give her treats for it anymore, it's become second nature.

I hope you get past your reluctance to use food, because it's a great way to build foundation behaviors. I also agree with ditching the prong collar. At 4 months old your training should be very motivational. Later, when he's older, and commands have been fully learned and generalized to a variety of circumstances and proofed at varying levels of difficulty and distraction, it's perfect fine to correct him for non-compliance. But I guarantee that at his age you're nowhere near that point. The more you can make him WANT to work with you now, the more you make training fun for both of you, and the clearer and more consistent you can be, the fewer corrections you'll need later. It does sound like he's probably confused and frustrated, and that's why he's grumbling.

I would like to work him. I don't know in what. I've learned that he has working lines in him. I'd prefer not to kill his drive.

If that's the case, I'd strongly suggest checking out the Michael Ellis videos that MRL posted above. You'll see that he uses both food and toys as motivators and rewards.

 

[Bequavious]

Yes, I've read them. I read a bunch of them before I got my dog. One of the things I was interested in was their "puppy testing." You can look on this forum how people feel about their puppy test.

The truth is...even a slight bit of compulsion at 4 months old can break a dog's spirit and drive. It depends on the dog and how easily it can bounce back, but you can very quickly destroy a lot of its drive at that age. The monks do train pets...and its fine if that's what you want, but OP mentioned doing some sort of sport/work so my recommendation is not to use those methods. The fact is...none of us have any idea if they do or don't break the dog's spirit from reading a book. No one in their right mind is going to write, "we did this so we could break the dog's spirit and make it behave no matter what." But from what I've seen (and I started training my boy with compulsion) its very easy to destroy a dog's spirit with those methods.

I'm lucky that I have a pretty hard dog and it didn't crush his spirit. He still loves to work and I think I made the switch to positive methods early enough that it didn't affect him too much. I have no problem with how he works...but if I had started some drive building earlier, it would be even better. I've seen plenty of dogs that have been trained in the way my boy was (at the club I'm at) that have had their drive/spirit destroyed and can't even get excited about happy happy rally-o.

There's a lot of older books that talk about older methods that have no mention of the negative effects of those methods...does that make them not have any? For instance...Schutzhund: Theory and Training Methods by Susan Barwig is considered a very good book to read if you're interested in Schutzhund. But at this point I know of very few people that use many of the methods described in that book to teach some of the more advanced obedience.

Yeah, I wouldn't recommend compulsion with a puppy either and the one book I read by the monks definitely said to use just positive reinforcement with puppies and keep it fun and short. Maybe that's new to their revised addition though? The reason I said they don't break the dogs' spirits is because of all the anecdotes about dogs that went through their residency program. I suppose it's possible that those stories are the minority, but I guess it seemed unlikely that people who see their dogs primarily as friends would happily recommend trainers that turned them into dreary robots :/

Yeah the OP hadn't mentioned the sport work when I posted (took me too long to type lol!) With a working dog I would definitely look at Leerburg though and I think somebody posted some of their videos earlier. I feel like they have a great transition from working with treats, to toys, to using corrections as the dog learns and matures so you get a dog with beautiful drive and competition precision.


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[Bequavious]

This ^^ is such a refreshing statement!!! Very rarely do I see that stated on this forum, but I suspect it reflects a HUGE precent of the training problems posted. Major Kudos to you!!!!

D'awww you're making me blush


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[Mr. D]

I did say I've only worked with adult gsds. Franklin being our first puppy. I want him to succeed. I want him to be the best dog he can be. I see a lot of potential with this little furball.
After reading some of the replies, it seems I'm expecting more of an adult. I don't sense and see distrust from him. But I do see the frustration. Frustration can lead to distrust, and I don't want to break the bond we have now.
I'm not 100% against the use of treat. I just didn't want him to be treat focused.

 

[Cassidy's Mom]

I'm not 100% against the use of treat. I just didn't want him to be treat focused.

Well here you go then!

This was something I did with Halo when she was a puppy - it teaches impulse control around food, which is a great thing.

And since a picture is worth a thousand words, here she is in that week 2 puppy class I mentioned above:

Does she look treat focused? And here I have treats in both hands, but she's clearly focusing on my face:

 

[Cassidy's Mom]

After reading some of the replies, it seems I'm expecting more of an adult. I don't sense and see distrust from him. But I do see the frustration. Frustration can lead to distrust, and I don't want to break the bond we have now.

Absolutely, and good for you for recognizing that.

 

[selzer]

Well here you go then!

"It's Yer Choice" - YouTube

This was something I did with Halo when she was a puppy - it teaches impulse control around food, which is a great thing.

And since a picture is worth a thousand words, here she is in that week 2 puppy class I mentioned above:

Does she look treat focused? And here I have treats in both hands, but she's clearly focusing on my face:

This is what they were trying to do with us in class. Make the puppy ignore food on the floor, or put it in your hands, and give it when the dog looks at your face. Games. Yes, the dog is focused on your face, to get the treat in your hand. He has learned to open the hand, he needs to look at your face, make eye contact. Personally, I don't like this. I have done it. I just don't like it. With any of my dogs, if I have a broken dish or a dropped pill bottle, I can just say Leave It, and they do.

Treats are great to start with but when you start phasing them out, that is when you can get an even better response, because the reward is intermittent. I would hope that the goal is always to graduate to simply verbal praise.

I would not worry about a dog who is food motivated. It can gnerally be transfered to praise and or play motivated. The idea is that you want to build a bond, on a strong foundation, and food can help you get your puppy's attention, it can help you mark good behavior, and mark praise words. As that bond increases, food isn't nearly as important to your pup.

 

[zyppi]

you've got a smart baby, but 4 months is a baby. No reason to use pain to train.

Many of us use prong collars, but not just to punish a dog, and certainly not on a puppy.

Please look into a new trainer. Preferably one good with this breed.

If a 4 month old has been driven to growl, you've gone too far imho.

Start over with treats ( and, yes, you will see that a happy puppy learns quickly and repetition, repetition, repetition, will see the day when obedience is constant whether treats are there or not).

 

[Suka]

deleting this per poster, so she can edit the article better

 

[Redrider469]

The trainer I use says treat are perfectly acceptable at this point. You have plenty of time to train your dog. Let him enjoy being a puppy, treats and all. As he gets older, you can ease off the treats and switch to a praise based method.


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[Mr. D]

deleting this per poster, so she can edit the article better

It was a good article. Hurry bring it back.

 

[Cassidy's Mom]

I'll let Suka re-post her link, but here's another great article, also by Pat Miller, and also from the Whole Dog Journal - it's about how to fade lures, prompts, and treats: Advanced Dog Training Methods: How to Fade Prompts and Lures - Whole Dog Journal Article

Using treats in training is not “bribery.” In early stages of training as described above, treats are lures; after a dog knows how to perform a behavior, when given after the fact to reinforce that behavior, treats are rewards.

Still, there’s value in minimizing the use of treats so your dog doesn’t expect one every time she performs. When your dog gets a treat every time she sits (what’s called a continuous schedule of reinforcement), she comes to expect one every time she sits. Ask her to sit a few times without a reinforcer, and she may stop sitting on cue because it’s no longer rewarding to her to do so. When an animal stops performing a behavior, it’s called extinction.

When you gradually reduce the frequency of treats so that she gets them randomly and occasionally but not every time (in what’s called a random schedule of reinforcement) she’ll keep sitting when you ask because she knows it will pay off eventually – like putting quarters in a slot machine. Putting a behavior on a random schedule makes it very resistant to extinction and makes it more likely that your dog will respond when you need her to, even if you’ve run out of treats.

 

[Cassidy's Mom]

Another good article about luring, shaping, and capturing: CCSC Dog Talk: Capturing, Shaping, Modeling, Luring

Obviously, I train my dogs to do many things on cue, but I also really like to train several default behaviors too, and that's where capturing is really handy. A default behavior is what your dog will fall back on in the absence of any cue by you. So I train my dogs to look at me with the "watch" command, but I don't want them only paying attention to me when I tell them to, I also want them to look at me when I HAVEN'T specifically asked them to. Starting out by marking and rewarding random eye contact will increase that behavior, and then I can use it in a variety of ways because the dog understands by then that this is behavior with a strong history of reinforcement - I expect them to look at me after I put their food bowls on the floor and wait for me to release them to eat, they have to sit and look at me before I open the door and release them to go outside or to come back in, to jump in and out of the car, before I throw the ball for them, any number of things. I don't need to use treats at this point, even though I initially used them to train this default attention, I use real life rewards - anything the dog values.

That's why I like the It's Yer Choice game - in addition to a "leave it" cue, they learn the default behavior of impulse control around food. Just because I have it that doesn't mean they'll get any, and if I do decide to give them some, they know the rules about how that's going to work.

 

[selzer]

Half the time I am reading treats, and half the time I am reading threats. And you know what? It works both ways. LOL.

... makes it resistant to extinction, so your dog will be more likely to respond when you need her to, even if you've run out of threats.

Karma! Darn it, Come! you pain the butt, or I am going to, uhm, going to, uhm, uh, well uh

Oh, here you are, good girl!













Must be a full moon tonight.