Also what I am doing now is something that I do not like to do, because now my puppy is not as rambunctious as she used to be: When she is out of her crate or out of the patio, which is almost all the time except for meals and sleep, I have her on a leash, when we walk around the house I have her a little tight just to allow her to heal and head movement and when we are still I give her the full length also when she goes potty. I do not like this but it has helped with her not play jumping on the smaller dogs, cat or on guests and children, which is a big concern, but still it just feels like she has no freedom to be a puppy, she just turned 4 months and on the first 3 weeks in the house I kept her collar and leash free, then the breeder came to visit us and recommended me to put on a collar, and then the trainer recommended me to put on a leash, I am afraid that the next advise is going to be to crate her all the time. I want her to explore and socialize but I do not want her to hurt children, or my cat or my mothers small dogs. If she is not on a leash when I go to another room she runs off to greet my mother and jump on her and her dogs or when II play with my cat she wants to play with her to and it scares the cat.
Wow this is more difficult that I imagined!!
I can't enroll her in classes (there are none where I live), I am about to move to another town, in 4 weeks.
HELP!!

 

You know when you know. That's the best I can say it. Problem with that is that they might know what "sit" means, but they might not hear you at the moment or understand you because they're distracted. The distraction part...is the handlers fault. You put the dog in a situation where it wasn't ready to be in. You can't practice sits at home, in a quiet room, take the dog to the dog park, and expect it to sit when you say sit because there is so much more going on.

I don't train 100% positive, but the only time I correct is when I know my dog knows a command and he just blew it off. I'm 100% certain he heard me...because I say his name, he looks at me, and I say the command. That being said, my dog is 3 years old.

The point is, many people have different ideas of "trained dog." I know its a bit bad, but there are different types of training. To make it simple, I split them into sport and pet. You see a sport dog...Schutzhund, agility, AKC obedience, ect...it is expect that dog WANTS to do the work, is happy doing the work, and is allowed to make its own decisions that are hopefully the right decisions that are what the handler wants from it. You see pet dogs...calmer, and truly not really allowed to make its own decisions. Sure, they probably know a lot of stuff, they know tricks, they understand commands, but they just do it because they're asked...and many times...because they've been taught to do it because if they don't do it, there will be punishment. Again, not saying that this is how all dogs are, but in general you do see a lot of this. I can't remember how many times people said their dogs are better trained than mine and then the moment they say a command or raise a hand the ears drop and the tail tucks. It's like...well great, the dog knows how to sit, but its clearly not doing it because it wants to.

One of the biggest test of this is the recall. Some dogs, when called, run 100% full speed to their handler. Others slowly walk to delay anything that might happen to them on the other end. Now, some of this is natural and dogs will just not show that much exuberance while training. But 95% of the time its because of the method that dog was trained with. Punishment when it didn't come because it didn't understand what was expected...well why would it want to hurry up and come towards something that confused it in the first place.

 

One of the biggest test of this is the recall. Some dogs, when called, run 100% full speed to their handler. Others slowly walk to delay anything that might happen to them on the other end. Now, some of this is natural and dogs will just not show that much exuberance while training. But 95% of the time its because of the method that dog was trained with. Punishment when it didn't come because it didn't understand what was expected...well why would it want to hurry up and come towards something that confused it in the first place.

Hey, my Gretel does this she runs full speed outside and sometimes inside the house, but she sometimes runs past me about 15 feet and sometimes about 1 or 2 feet from me, I believe it is because of her exuberance and not because she is blowing me off.
Thank you

 

This is how I know Franklin chooses not to do so. I had him when he was 2 weeks old. Around five weeks or so was when I started really building our foundation. Did he know everything then? No. He wasnt expected to either. But I taught him to leave it and no bite. It took about a week or so. Everyday. I didn't use food as reinforcement, positive touching and verbally marked. When was about 7-10 weeks, I started teaching down, sit, get and bring it. Using his motivation and his want to please, I feel I was very successful. I did sessions with him twice a day, kept them very short,, and played the rest with him. Now at 4 months is when I decided to introduce the prong collar for corrections at the the recommendations of Petsmart. She teaches Cgc, and a bunch of other things. Her classes are always full. She always brings along her two dogs, a Doberman and something else. They are well trained. She uses them in her classes to help teach other dogs. So I can't completely dismiss her.

When he started growling at the corrections, I felt it was because he was just resisting a new element to our sessions.
Like you said, you know when you. It could also be I'm completely wrong.

 

perfect example in the video below. even around distractions the dog comes when called. he comes quick. he is excited to come. he'd rather come then play with his friends. the dog is 6 months in this vid. hard to get that with fear/punishment based training.

20131011_162303.mp4 - YouTube

 

So I was doing good.


Before I started with having her on the leash all the time and correcting her? I am going to revert, but still I have the same problem, I am afraid she will kill the chihuhua or the yorkie, or mess the relationship with my cat, that has really come a long way, the cat isn't scared anymore except when Gretel tries to play with her, I don't want the cat to start scratching Gretel again. What can I do? Any ideas? I understand now that I have to go to the basics and reinforce her focus and name, but how can I teach her to be calm around the dogs and cat?
Thanks
Santiago

 

This is towards Mr. D and santiago.

It's very hard for the rest of us to believe that your 4 month old pups have commands down 100%. Although I believe that the dog knows what sit means and what's expected, you might not realize that something is distracting the pup at that time. A smell, a noise, a movement of a leaf, whatever. And you just don't realize that even though the dog is looking at you, something else is on its mind. Its something that's completely normal for a puppy. Like its been stated, they don't have very long attention spans. In an obedience training session...your dog realizes that things are happening and it has probably learned at this point that you'll be running through the gamut of what its learned, so it will offer up those things. What they don't yet realize is that it will be expected of them ALL the time, no matter what is going on around them. This takes time, and although it takes a lot of training, it also takes maturity on the dog's part...which is something that's crazy to expect from a 4 month old.

Again...a 4 month old SHOULD be running really fast at you. You're its life right now. All it knows. The only thing that will protect that dog. So why wouldn't it come towards you 100%. The fact that the dog runs past you though, means it doesn't understand what a recall is. Or you're just training a very lax recall. Although you might think your dog is a brave GSD, the truth is right now it still needs you for protection and it has not completely learned that it can do things independently. Soon enough, you'll see when your dog blows you off and decides to make its own decisions.

 

I never said he listens 100%. I know he's a puppy. Everything you guys have said a happy puppy exhibits are the things I see with Franklin. I just started with the collar and leash. He walked super well on leash and off leash. Maybe I'm not explaining well enough what I see. Or maybe I have and it's being ignored. I have discontinued the use of the collar during our sessions for now. When I get the chance I'm going to talk to the trainer and ask why it was her recommendation. I've also looked into the clicker with food.
One question I have, I could Google, but I wanted to see what others think or have tried. But can clicker training work with a verbal and physical reinforcement rather than food?

 

What I hope most people are hearing about training a 4 month old puppy....

Is that that MOST important thing is for them to be socialized, friendly, loving life and LOVING to listen, learn and be with their humans.

The BEST TRAINED pups at this age have neither a leash or collar on!!!!

Because we shouldn't even be thinking of 'obedience' and 'forcing/making' them do what we want.

Our main goal should be getting them to SO love to listen and learn and be with us that they are falling all over themselves to figure out the next 'game' we are teaching them (sit? down? heeling? all can be a GAME!).

Those that lose focus of that being the goal with a PUPPY are headed down a bad training path with a dog that won't think, won't offer new behaviors, and certainly HATE training in the end cause it's so horrible and the human is a big meanie. Hey, who want to hang around and be involved in something that isn't fun with a person who is MEAN!

#1 Training goal needs to be our pups attitude OFF leash, nothing else should matter.

Cause once you have that you can teach your pup/dog ANYTHING.

Did people bother to watch the videos/links I posted? From some of the top trainers in the WORLD!

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...welcome-gsd-faqs-first-time-owner/191183-top-training-expectations-puppies.html

Results from their dogs with the drive, focus and LOVE for the 'game' off leash?

LOOK AT this dogs attitude? No correction using the leash/collar but it's absolutely 'in the game and learning CAUSE IT WANTS TO !'

and cause I bet you think tricks are a waste of time (they are NOT) this is her dogs 'working'

 

Another thing to keep in mind: when you have a 4 month old puppy who you believe has been obedience trained, inevitably you're going to be very surprised when the puppy goes through the normal development stage where they test their boundaries. You're probably going to think there's something wrong with the dog, who by then is much larger and resembles a dog, but is still in fact very much a puppy. Please take your time with these youngsters, and don't expect too much from them too soon.

 

Thanks for this reminder.

 

MaggieRoseLee........GREAT POST!!!!!

 

Why are you so against food? Do you think it's cheating and makes you a bad trainer? Judging from your posts you're already pretty bad so just use food, you can't possibly get any worst

When dogs grow up they could like praise or toys more than food but puppies (like children) love treats! If we took two puppies and you trained yours with praise and pets and I trained with yummy treats I bet mine would be much more eager and more focused to learn. All kids love treats!

 

If I was in kindergarten and some kid got a lollipop and all I got was a high five I'd be pissed!

 

I am not sure if this is comparing apples to oranges, or anthropomorphizing the dog.

If you have TWO puppies, and you give one a piece of cheese, and you give the other a word of praise within full view of eachother, at the same time, you might just set yourself up for problems between your dogs, treat snatching, inability to focus because they are all worried about the treats and who gets them.

But a dog has no clue that he should expect a treat, unless you train them to expect a treat for everything done properly. A puppy has no way to compare his training experience, with the dog next door's. As for lollipops and kindergarteners, well, teachers complain about behavior all the time, but the load kids full of sugar, and then get mad when the kids are buzzed so they think the kids should be on meds. It's crazy to give out lollipops when a high five or a sticker or a star drawn on the paper is JUST AS EFFECTIVE without the side-effects.

Treats for pups are great. They jump start training. Just like they load a clicker, for those who use clickers, they load the praise words. At four months old, you cannot give too many treats in training. But by using praise with your treats, you should be able to wean the treats, and eventually praise should be all you need, or you should have a dog that is willing to work in the hopes of praise words from her favorite person.

 

Here's a great article about reinforcers: Using food and other primary reinforcers to train and socialize your dog

Primary Reinforcers

Essentially, any sort of reward that has to do with the gratification of physical needs is said to be a primary reinforcer. Primary reinforcers are further differentiated by the fact that no learning has to take place before the subject begins to value them.

For example, eating is a basic physiological need. Therefore, if you are dealing with hungry people, you don't have to convince them that it is worth making a certain amount of effort to acquire some food. And when was the last time that you had to coax a dog into having a bite to eat? Both species already value food because food is fundamental to our physiological functioning.

Here, then, are the three distinguishing features of primary reinforcers:

They are fundamental to some aspect of the subject's physiological functioning.
They are valued even before any learning has taken place.
They are super effective.

 

This is good too: The Five Basic Motivators

primary reinforcers – OutsideK9

Primary Reinforcers: These are the things a dog naturally views as rewards. You don’t have to teach a dog that a liver treat is worth working for. Almost all dogs will view a treat as a primary reinforcer. Most retrieving breeds (with a strong prey drive) will view a retrieve or even getting to hold a favorite object as a primary reinforcer.

The Gray Area: These are motivators that some dogs may see as primary and others may have to learn as secondary reinforcers. In this category are verbal praise, affection, and just being with you. Some highly-social Labs go crazy over a high-pitched baby voice. Meanwhile, independent sled-dog and pointer breeds often don’t care whether you’re around or not.

Secondary Reinforcers: These are also called conditioned reinforcers because the dog learns that they’re valuable based on their pairing with primary reinforcers. That sound that the food makes when it hits the bottom of your dog’s bowl is a good example. Most dogs will sprint toward that sound because they’ve learned that it’s predictive of food. If your dog will come to that sound, you should be able to train him, through repetition, to come to any sound.

 

Lol way to take my post literally and without any humor. Selzer you must not have any kids if you think a bag of goldfish is just as motivating as a gold star.

And I'm saying almost all puppies will be more eager and focused around food. Sounds like you just want to argue and doing a bad job at it.

 

Mr. D, sorry that I piggy backed on your thread, but it was just what I was looking for. Very helpfull.
This is the conclusion that I arrived at. I will not use a leash on the dog, until I at least have his whole attention. I will work on his engagement by playing, and using marking training with both treats and praise, until I can wean the treats completely. I will continue this until I can honestly say I have her full attention on the first call of her name or focus word. more time before teaching more commands, so far what Gretel knows is down, sit, up, recall and speak, and also a very little heel, I will also continue teaching this commands, specially the recall command and being less lax on that command. I will only use the leash for taking her on walks outside the compound.

How does this sound to you guys and gals? Any thoughts are more than greatly appreciated.
Also any help with the issue of her jumping on my cat or my mothers small dogs for play will be even more appreciated.
Thanks
Santiago

 

Mr. D, sorry that I piggy backed on your thread, but it was just what I was looking for. Very helpfull.

No big deal. I was done with the thread a while back anyways.

 

I think another problem with petting and physical affection during training is that it lasts too long and gets the dog out of "training mode." I'm going to assume your dog gets all wiggly and loving the pets so they last 5-10 seconds or more, but you're probably going to tell me you just touch him once on the top of the head and he wets himself out of happiness. Petting/physical contact also gets your dog out of correct position, so they don't realize that they need to stay in that position or that is what is expected of them. They are very cause and affect, so if they're getting pet and they love it while they're standing in front of you...they'll connect that and just stand in front of you. You'll have a hard time breaking some of those habits if you ever do decide to do anything more than "pet training." You'll hear people say that the position of the reward matters...so that the dog doesn't cross over, or forge, or look one way or another way because its expecting the reward from a certain place. This is what makes treat training easier, you can put the treat in the position you want it to be and not confuse the dog with WHY its getting rewarded. A treat lasts for 1 second and you can get your dog back into the right mindset for continuing the work or training. I started training my dog with treats...we now go through about a bag a month. So if you still think the dogs get too attached to treats, keep thinking it.

Here's a hint...don't ask for advice when you don't really want it. Do your thing. Read some more books, enjoy your dog.

Without seeing you train your dog, and the way your dog reacts to the praise/corrections you give him, we're just getting a very biased opinion of what is actually going on. The truth is, most of us can't train by ourselves and need people to watch. Not just explain the situation that's happening and get advice online. For every question or concern that we've had, you have a very positive explanation of how your animal is different than the ones we've had or seen trained. So it seems like no matter what advice you get, your dog is different and it won't work for him.

 

Here's a hint...don't ask for advice when you don't really want it. Do your thing. Read some more books, enjoy your dog.

Agreed. not only are you listening to someone about putting a prong on a 4 month old but you arent even using it right. giving little pops dont teach the dog anything, it just annoys it. trainers are petsmart are geared towards training dogs for pet homes. a class can have dogs from 10 pounds to dogs that weigh 100. can you honestly say you train all these dogs the same? the advice on here is from people who have lots and lots of hands on experience with the breed. take it or go back to your petsmart trainer.

santiagoamr you should keep a leash on your pup. when working on engagement you use your hands and lure your dog around and mark and reward. but if your pup gets distracted by a leaf blowing nearby then you dont want to be calling his name over and over to get his attention. you should call his name and if he doesnt look at you then gently pull the leash towards you and then when he looks, mark and reward. a leash is your friend and helps you control the pup. keep everything fun. it should be about bonding and socializing. you can start seriously training around 8 months and by then if you have a solid bond with your dog, you'll be amazed at how easy and fun training can be.

 

As far as treats go - think about it another way, from the dog's point of view. Just one event, like getting at the thawing meat on the counter, can make a counter surfer out of your dog. Or finding a bone in the garbage might entice your dog to forage through the container whenever you're not looking. They want food, and getting it motivates them. Why not use this to your advantage?

But in saying that, I know that different things mean more to different dogs. My puppy liked getting food rewards inside when I was teaching him certain things, but outside the food was meaningless. When I took him on off-leash hikes and recalled him, he ignored the food rewards - what worked as a reward was me offering him my hand, lol. He loved this, although DH thought I was a maniac, letting my puppy slobber my fingers. I didn't mind, he was taught a soft mouth, and this was a reward that he valued and would work for. That's what counts.