Take the prong off the puppy before you ruin him. Stop correcting and start over. Everything should be positive at his age.

Why are you using a hula hoop instead of food? Find and use something of higher value and use that.

Puppies that age don't have much of an attention span. Keep training short. 15-20 minutes tops. Just do them several times spread throughout the day.

Is he in a training class yet?

 

4 months old?

Life should be a glorious game, not one full of BORING BORING BORING BORING 'OBEDIENCE'!!!!!!

Take off the darn prong collar and instead get out the treats/clicker and start teaching him GAMES!!!

The GAME of 'sit'. The GAME of 'down' . If you teach it as a fun game with a real REWARD (not a punishment already!!!!!!!!!!!!!) he'll be offering you a sit/down/whatever faster than you can even think about what you were wanting him to do!

What you SHOULD be teaching a puppy (please read all the link) ---> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...welcome-gsd-faqs-first-time-owner/191183-top-training-expectations-puppies.html

I don't even have a LEASH on my puppies, let alone a prong. I want them to WANT to be with me to listen and learn new things. If I am not even able to keep their attention and focus (in short session) then the problem is ME and what I need to learn. Not about controlling and forcing my pup to do something.

Better to spend way more time socializing my pup and having them comfortable in any new situation. And getting that bond with engagement and positive training.

 

Well first, he's too young for a prong collar. You're doing more damage that anything. Second, is the hula hoop a toy reward?! I'd suggest switching to food rewards with a smaller toy reward like a kong wubba or ball on a rope....

Everything at this age should be positive and fun to build your relationship, not hinder it. Keep training sessions to 10-15 minutes, maybe even up to 20 minutes but ALWAYS end on a positive note so you don't cause stress and your puppy to not want to work with you.

 

Yes. The hula is a toy reward. He loves it. Loves to chase it, loves to play tug with it. Why would it not be appropriate? It has higher value than food. Why am I not using food? Because I read a few books from the Monks of New Skete. I prefer Franklin not learn tricks for treats, but to understand fully and completely what is expected. He is a smart dog.
From the replies, you guys make it seem I'm abusing him. Lol, how it comes across to me. Take no offense to it.
That isn't the case. He is having fun. He plays around, we run around. It isn't always obey obey! But why would I not correct him for not listening. I was under the impression that training him was bond time. Obviously so is fun time.

The use of the prong collar was at the recommendation of a trainer at petsmart. I used it with our adult gsds, was tremendously successful. This is our first puppy. The prong is a small one with a nylon buckle. My corrections would be what seems like to me the equivalent of a finger flick. He shows no other signs of stress except the little growl. I always end on positive note.

 

Before I do, I give a cycle of commands in various order. Sit, down, stay, or sit and stay, or down, up, sit, stay.

Why do a stay command and an up command? Does an up equate to a sit or a stand. You can't explain this to a dog so why include it.

The sit, down and stand are sufficient. The other commands can be confusing. The dog should not be expected to do these commands in sync until they understand the command very well on it's own. This takes hundreds of repetitions.

The reason the dog is not doing it is it doesn't see the reward coming quick enough. It does what you want, and instead of an instant reward you ask it to preform another command. That is not good enough for a pup and can de motivate it.

Basically you are doing too much too young and correcting the dog for no reason. Why do you say no when you correct?

You need to teach the dog not blindly expect it to comply with your wishes.

 

Why do a stay command and an up command? Does an up equate to a sit or a stand. You can't explain this to a dog so why include it.
Stay means stay. Don't get the rolling thing until I release you. Stay is only for a few short seconds. My up for him is jump from what ever position he's in. I don't do it all the time. More of a physical exercise than anything.
The sit, down and stand are sufficient. The other commands can be confusing. The dog should not be expected to do these commands in sync until they understand the command very well on it's own. This takes hundreds of repetitions.
I don't move on to the next command until the first is completed. The ones he follows through with, he does quite quickly. The times he doesn't he appears to think about choosing or not. Does that make sense?.

The reason the dog is not doing it is it doesn't see the reward coming quick enough. It does what you want, and instead of an instant reward you ask it to preform another command. That is not good enough for a pup and can de motivate it.
This may be the issue. It makes sense.
Basically you are doing too much too young and correcting the dog for no reason. Why do you say no when you correct?
I may be doing too much at once. But I don't think I'm doing too much so young. He's succeeded at doing everything I've asked him. Aside from when he chooses not to. He has picked up everything he's been taught. That's why I say that.
I say no when I correct because it was something I picked up from the art of raising your puppy. The reason, how I understand it, no should carry a negative aversion. Say no all day and doesn't mean anything. Say no with a correction means I mean no.
You need to teach the dog not blindly expect it to comply with your wishes.

...

 

THROWING a toy is never a good reward. You want the dog to play WITH you, you want it to realize that the toy is just an intermediary of play with its handler.

Monks of New Skete...ground breaking books from the 1980s.

The prong collar is alright to use, no one here has problems with it. But most people will recommend you do it past the age of 6 months when the dog's neck and spine have developed a bit more. The problem with using it now isn't the corrections you claim to be giving...its the accidental correction or the dog getting caught on something that might do some damage. It's clearly causing your dog discomfort if he's growling at you. Imagine if he decided to just take off for something, and you're holding onto the leash, the prong will tighten and he'll get a huge correction that you didn't meant to give.

You also just shouldn't need to correct a 4 month old with a prong. They are much more biddable and you should be able to correct with a regular nylon collar or even a martingale at this point. The reason prongs are used later is that some dogs just don't care about nylon collar corrections (mine) and you need something that is quicker and more effective.

Point is...you asked why your dog is growling. He clearly doesn't like/accept the prong collar and the type of training that is going on. The advice is to remove said collar and work with a different one. Once he gets bigger, more driven, you can go to a prong collar in order to help you handle him.

 

THROWING a toy is never a good reward. You want the dog to play WITH you, you want it to realize that the toy is just an intermediary of play with its handler.

Monks of New Skete...ground breaking books from the 1980s.


Point is...you asked why your dog is growling. He clearly doesn't like/accept the prong collar and the type of training that is going on. The advice is to remove said collar and work with a different one. Once he gets bigger, more driven, you can go to a prong collar in order to help you handle him.

I see nothing wrong with their method of training. It's been successful over and over, yes?

I will do away with the collar until later and use a martingale instead. Like I said, I was using it at the recommendation of the trainer at petsmart.

*he does not understand why in the middle of a game you are now action aggressively with him (I know you are not being aggressive, but to the pup's brain, with a prong collar on, he is just confused and reacts to it).

This makes sense to me.

Thanks for the input everyone.

 

Your expectations are not reasonable from a 4 month old. OF COURSE he will sometimes not carry through, he's a baby!! All the instructors and trainers I have ever worked with always said that a dog can't be expected to be reliable in obedience commands until they are over a year old - until then, help them understand in a positive way what you want, and set them up for success.

I'm not against prong collars, nor am I against corrections - but neither has a place on a four month old. He is growling at you because he does not understand why he is corrected and is confused. At this age, everything is a game, everything should be a game to them - their brain cannot process this correction thing, and he does not understand why in the middle of a game you are now action aggressively with him (I know you are not being aggressive, but to the pup's brain, with a prong collar on, he is just confused and reacts to it).

The best foundation training you can give your puppy is to make playing with you the best, funnest most positve thing in the world - this lays the foundation to attention, bonding, work ethic, desire to learn and to please you. Corrections have no place in the laying of this foundation. Throw in the occasional obedience command as part of the game, but it is a game, not a life and death situation.

 

Lucy Dog,

+1 gajillion.

 

if your dog isnt having fun good luck trying to get him to do commands in public around distractions. big difference between forcing him to do something and him wanting to do it. it's all about motivating your dog and not about correcting your dog.

 

Too young for prong corrections.

 

I would definitely not take any advice from a Petsmart trainer.

 

Check out this guy's youtube page. Much better training methods.

Training Positive - YouTube

 

Thank you.

 

Most methods will be very successful with 4 month old GSD pups. They're still young, they don't really want to disobey you and they realize they depend on you for a lot of things. This is why you want to keep that kind of bond going and expand on it. In a few months, your dog is going to find his "middle finger" and you'll see that 80% rate go down. What you'd like to make sure right now is that your dog is getting the foundation to want to be 100% 8 months from now. You may be seeing something right now, but once your dog gets off leash, with distractions, he'll quickly figure out that you can't correct him. On top of that, if he blows you off, he'd rather not come near you because he will get corrected. Where as a dog that is trained with more positive methods, is more likely to respond to a command because they know that something BETTER will come from it than whatever the fun distraction is currently offering.

You don't have to use treats. You can use toys. You SHOULD use whatever your dog responds to best. I've read enough books to know that the old school methods really like to downplay treats and emphasize that the dog "won't do anything if you don't have a treat later on." It's completely false. Ask the majority of people that started with treat or clicker training on here. I trained with treats in the beginning...now I don't even have treats on me when I train. My dog will still do everything I ask.

I'm not trying to get you to train with treats, just to let you know that there are other, better training methods out there. And if you truly want to do some higher level work with him...you don't want to do anything that might kill drive. Compulsion has a way of teaching the dog that its better to do NOTHING than to do the WRONG thing...and when they figure that out, its really hard to get them out of that frame of mind.

 

I think your puppy's growling because he's frustrated. He probably doesn't want to do OB while he's playing with the hula hoop. I had the same issue (not growling, because I wasn't correcting, but obvious frustration) when I tried to introduce OB routine into the flirt pole games. So compromise is in order: make the OB fun! You can still reinforce the stay command by not letting the puppy rush out the door until you use a release word. Teach the puppy 'drop it' and how to place toys in your hand - this is still training him, but it's way more fun for him. He should be having fun at his young age

 

Mostly I agree with everyone else, put the prong on the shelf for now.

It is ok to use a toy rather than treats if you intend to train that way, but you have to make that toy the biggest, bestest thing in the world for the puppy and only given to him while training to mark positives. Food rewards are simpler because you can vary them, you can give a little or a lot to mark a party for really getting something. And you can have high value treats as well as ordinary treats.

Treats are somthing that eventually you will phase out, maybe not completely. Lots of people continue to use treats when training new things. I can or not, just depends. I always praise when I treat, and eventually praise is enough to let the dog know he did the right thing, even if it is brand-new.

What I did not see anyone mention is this up-command, that you said is when you want him to jump. Why are you doing this with a 4 month old puppy. Let a puppy be a puppy. Let him run and play and jump. Do not force him to run or jump. His body is maturing, and shepherds, even working line dogs, are prone to hip, elbow, and back problems. Some of these are genetic. Some can be influenced by environment. I would not train any jumping with a youngster.

This should be fun for you and your puppy, if it is not, than something is wrong and that is often as not on the human end of the leash, after all we are asking a dog to live in a human world. If that isn't happening the way we want it, we need to try other methods to communicate with the dog.

I let my 4 month old pups just be puppies. I might sign them up for puppy class and take them once a week to the class and there we learn to sit and down, and we socialize with the other owners, we are introduced to the tunnel, and we keep things light and quickly move from one thing to another, without dwelling on anything too long. The rest of the week, I don't do any training. I let them play. I play with them. If house training is not complete, than I am very careful with them in the house to prevent accidents.

I think WL people are very careful not to push the youngsters into too much obedience too fast, and to play games that will bring out their drives like tug, and playing with a flirt pole. One of my buddies with WL dogs, waits until they are 10 months old, puts a prong on them, at that point, and does all their obedience training in a week. That works for him.

I don't use prong or e-collars, I stick with the martingales, and I don't push puppies too fast, we just take our time, and by the time they are 1 or 2 at the latest, they are behaved enought to earn an AKC title, and a CGC. Not everyone is willing to wait that long, and I get that. But my point is, your puppy is a baby, and he will become hard to handle, if you label him defiant, stubborn, and correct him for not being perfect.

 

I did say I've only worked with adult gsds. Franklin being our first puppy. I want him to succeed. I want him to be the best dog he can be. I see a lot of potential with this little furball.
After reading some of the replies, it seems I'm expecting more of an adult. I don't sense and see distrust from him. But I do see the frustration. Frustration can lead to distrust, and I don't want to break the bond we have now.
I'm not 100% against the use of treat. I just didn't want him to be treat focused.

 

I'm not 100% against the use of treat. I just didn't want him to be treat focused.

Well here you go then!

This was something I did with Halo when she was a puppy - it teaches impulse control around food, which is a great thing.

And since a picture is worth a thousand words, here she is in that week 2 puppy class I mentioned above:

Does she look treat focused? And here I have treats in both hands, but she's clearly focusing on my face:

 

Well here you go then!

"It's Yer Choice" - YouTube

This was something I did with Halo when she was a puppy - it teaches impulse control around food, which is a great thing.

And since a picture is worth a thousand words, here she is in that week 2 puppy class I mentioned above:

Does she look treat focused? And here I have treats in both hands, but she's clearly focusing on my face:

This is what they were trying to do with us in class. Make the puppy ignore food on the floor, or put it in your hands, and give it when the dog looks at your face. Games. Yes, the dog is focused on your face, to get the treat in your hand. He has learned to open the hand, he needs to look at your face, make eye contact. Personally, I don't like this. I have done it. I just don't like it. With any of my dogs, if I have a broken dish or a dropped pill bottle, I can just say Leave It, and they do.

Treats are great to start with but when you start phasing them out, that is when you can get an even better response, because the reward is intermittent. I would hope that the goal is always to graduate to simply verbal praise.

I would not worry about a dog who is food motivated. It can gnerally be transfered to praise and or play motivated. The idea is that you want to build a bond, on a strong foundation, and food can help you get your puppy's attention, it can help you mark good behavior, and mark praise words. As that bond increases, food isn't nearly as important to your pup.

 

you've got a smart baby, but 4 months is a baby. No reason to use pain to train.

Many of us use prong collars, but not just to punish a dog, and certainly not on a puppy.

Please look into a new trainer. Preferably one good with this breed.

If a 4 month old has been driven to growl, you've gone too far imho.

Start over with treats ( and, yes, you will see that a happy puppy learns quickly and repetition, repetition, repetition, will see the day when obedience is constant whether treats are there or not).

 

deleting this per poster, so she can edit the article better

 

It was a good article. Hurry bring it back.

 

The trainer I use says treat are perfectly acceptable at this point. You have plenty of time to train your dog. Let him enjoy being a puppy, treats and all. As he gets older, you can ease off the treats and switch to a praise based method.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App

 

I'll let Suka re-post her link, but here's another great article, also by Pat Miller, and also from the Whole Dog Journal - it's about how to fade lures, prompts, and treats: Advanced Dog Training Methods: How to Fade Prompts and Lures - Whole Dog Journal Article

Using treats in training is not “bribery.” In early stages of training as described above, treats are lures; after a dog knows how to perform a behavior, when given after the fact to reinforce that behavior, treats are rewards.

Still, there’s value in minimizing the use of treats so your dog doesn’t expect one every time she performs. When your dog gets a treat every time she sits (what’s called a continuous schedule of reinforcement), she comes to expect one every time she sits. Ask her to sit a few times without a reinforcer, and she may stop sitting on cue because it’s no longer rewarding to her to do so. When an animal stops performing a behavior, it’s called extinction.

When you gradually reduce the frequency of treats so that she gets them randomly and occasionally but not every time (in what’s called a random schedule of reinforcement) she’ll keep sitting when you ask because she knows it will pay off eventually – like putting quarters in a slot machine. Putting a behavior on a random schedule makes it very resistant to extinction and makes it more likely that your dog will respond when you need her to, even if you’ve run out of treats.

 

Another good article about luring, shaping, and capturing: CCSC Dog Talk: Capturing, Shaping, Modeling, Luring

Obviously, I train my dogs to do many things on cue, but I also really like to train several default behaviors too, and that's where capturing is really handy. A default behavior is what your dog will fall back on in the absence of any cue by you. So I train my dogs to look at me with the "watch" command, but I don't want them only paying attention to me when I tell them to, I also want them to look at me when I HAVEN'T specifically asked them to. Starting out by marking and rewarding random eye contact will increase that behavior, and then I can use it in a variety of ways because the dog understands by then that this is behavior with a strong history of reinforcement - I expect them to look at me after I put their food bowls on the floor and wait for me to release them to eat, they have to sit and look at me before I open the door and release them to go outside or to come back in, to jump in and out of the car, before I throw the ball for them, any number of things. I don't need to use treats at this point, even though I initially used them to train this default attention, I use real life rewards - anything the dog values.

That's why I like the It's Yer Choice game - in addition to a "leave it" cue, they learn the default behavior of impulse control around food. Just because I have it that doesn't mean they'll get any, and if I do decide to give them some, they know the rules about how that's going to work.

 

Another good article about luring, shaping, and capturing: CCSC Dog Talk: Capturing, Shaping, Modeling, Luring

Obviously, I train my dogs to do many things on cue, but I also really like to train several default behaviors too, and that's where capturing is really handy. A default behavior is what your dog will fall back on in the absence of any cue by you. So I train my dogs to look at me with the "watch" command, but I don't want them only paying attention to me when I tell them to, I also want them to look at me when I HAVEN'T specifically asked them to. Starting out by marking and rewarding random eye contact will increase that behavior, and then I can use it in a variety of ways because the dog understands by then that this is behavior with a strong history of reinforcement - I expect them to look at me after I put their food bowls on the floor and wait for me to release them to eat, they have to sit and look at me before I open the door and release them to go outside or to come back in, to jump in and out of the car, before I throw the ball for them, any number of things. I don't need to use treats at this point, even though I initially used them to train this default attention, I use real life rewards - anything the dog values.

That's why I like the It's Yer Choice game - in addition to a "leave it" cue, they learn the default behavior of impulse control around food. Just because I have it that doesn't mean they'll get any, and if I do decide to give them some, they know the rules about how that's going to work.

Ok, so the other night, I was sitting there watching old Hawaii 5-Os, and eating my pork chops and greasy potatoes, and Babs is sitting there in front of me. Usually I give her my plate when I am done, very rarely I will give her some while I am eating. But she normally sits right there in front of me waiting for the plate. And she watches my face to find out exactly when I am going to decide to give it to her, because sometimes the food is totally gone and she just gets to lick it off, and sometimes I leave some. I think she thinks if she can catch my eye, I will leave a nice chunk for her. But maybe that is givng her too much credit. Of course she did wink at me yesterday.

Well anyway, when I did stand up, my leather sandles were in front of me on the floor. And she had drooled heavily into one of them, ICK!

Anyhow, so would this, teaching impulse control remove the drooling?

I mean, I can tell her to go lay down, or go to the study, or go to my bed, and she will. Even with the food she will leave if I tell her to. I don't mind her being there because it's not like she is trying to steal the food, or breathing on it or anything. And I can put it on the coffee table and go and get a coke, and she won't go near it. Would this translate into impulse control?

The drooling is new, though. And yesterday, I went through the whole process of making popcorn, shaking a pot over the burner, and all, and went and sat down, and then I had to call her. This has NEVER happened before. She comes trotting in if she hears the fridge, or if she hears a can being opened, or a package being rustled. Maybe she's sick.

 

Half the time I am reading treats, and half the time I am reading threats. And you know what? It works both ways. LOL.

... makes it resistant to extinction, so your dog will be more likely to respond when you need her to, even if you've run out of threats.

Karma! Darn it, Come! you pain the butt, or I am going to, uhm, going to, uhm, uh, well uh

Oh, here you are, good girl!













Must be a full moon tonight.

 

A lot of great information in this thread; I just want to add an article for the OP, who is worried that using treats will make his/her dog dependent on food. That can actually happen if done wrong but give this article a good read to understand how it is done correctly and hopefully understand why it works. I hope you can access the entire article.

Common Dog Training Mistakes - Whole Dog Journal Article

The top five errors committed when training your dog with positive techniques and positive dog training methods.

Mistake #1: “Positive = permissive”

Mistake #2: Dependency on luring

Mistake #3: Dependence on treats

Mistake #4: Poor timing

Mistake #5: Lacking sufficient courage of your convictions

---------------

"One of the things we value so much about positive training is the trust it builds between dog and human. Your dog trusts that he can try behaviors without getting hurt – you’ll let him know when he’s right, but you won’t frighten or hurt him when he’s wrong. When you violate that trust, you risk negative behavioral consequences that are sometimes significant, ranging from aggression at one end of the spectrum, to shutting down, or learned helplessness, at the other. "

"When a dog shuts down, losing his willingness to offer behaviors for fear he’ll be punished, it makes his training even more frustrating.
Aggression aside, using coercion along with positive training has serious consequences. If you punish your dog for failing to perform a cue that you “know” he knows, you “poison” that cue; in other words, you give him a negative association with it. The cue becomes ambiguous; the dog doesn’t know if it predicts “good stuff” (click! and treat) or “bad stuff” (punishment). This ambiguity creates stress, and can turn a happy working dog into one whose tail starts to lower and enthusiasm starts to wane.

 

I hate a dog staring at my food and drooling so I never feed of my plate. I think it is important to have the line between mine and the dogs. Then the dog can just be content and relax in its bed rather than worry about whats on my plate. If i want attention i can just call the dog and give it a treat.

 

LoL Madlab, I have this pet peeve too! :wild:

 

Alot to injest. I'm looking over and reading into the things posted. Thanks!

 

no one said to train using only positive methods. the advice was given is that the op should train his dog using motivation/positive instead of using punishment. when you motivate your dog it will want to work for you. you wont see a dog sit or down or come with speed and gusto if it fears the owner. the flashy obedience comes from a dog that is motivated. after you train your dog certain commands then you can "proof" it by punishing the dog if it doesnt listen. if i tell my dog to sit and he doesnt sit i will pop his prong collar. sit means sit. the difference is that the dog thinks that obedience is fun but it is NOT optional. training using dominance, fear, pain teaches the dog that commands are not optional but they are also not fun.

 

That makes more sense!



How would I know and at what age would it be appropriate to reinforce commands? Am I expecting too much from 1 week training on a 4 month old puppy?
Again
Thanks a lot