I remember that stage with all of my GSDs......


SuperG

 

I remember that stage with all of my GSDs......


SuperG

How many gsd have you trained and how many grandbabies do you have?

 

Older pup with training and prior cat experience would be your best chance at a good fit imop. We have kids/grandkids along with 4 gsds. All were mouthy to some degree and all wanted to chase our cat. With training and maturity those things diminished.

Tuke (mostly asl) was not only a persistent biter of hands, arms, and feet she would go for faces as well. She matured into a fantastic kid dog. Tough puppies are often great dogs.

 

You are lucky that happened, but I gave it a lot of thought and prayer and knew in my heart that this was the right thing to do. She was not bringing joy to me and she was frightening my family.

 

Eh, might not have been luck that happened. It was the training and maturity that did the most work.

You don't really need to continue defending your decision every time someone posts about puppies they had.

Puppies are a lot more work than I remembered. I hadn't had one in 12 or 13 years when I got my Varik, my first WL (75/25 DDR/WGWL). It was the longest year of my life! I also have a 6 lb Persian and we worked constantly on impulse control. I also had young grandkids in the mix with a dog that had a lot of growing up to do and was a pushy dog. I always said that in other hands he would have been a despot!

Just be at peace with your decision and make your drop dead dealbreaker list and work with a good breeder that knows their lines and what they produce. Most won't have the male there for you to see though. It would be the height of hubris to think that their females would all be a perfect match to their male. Most responsible breeders will be doing using a male outside of their kennel.

 

Character
Secure and self-confident, robust, natural, attentive, very resistant physically and psychically.
Compatibility
Good and secure social behaviour, gets along very well with humans and animals in the family environment after corresponding socialisation.

If only they came with a manual on how to get there. But, I guess that is a big part of what this forum is all about.

 

You said your breeder was sending the dog to Germany for Schutzhund training...code for fake title . Ill explain why on another thread.


The dogs haven't changed any nor was this thing king kong. Simply a puppy that needed some discipline. Modern training has removed peoples ability to discipline a dog effectively and thus suppress undesired behaviour. There is also some strange myth perpetrated all over the internet including on here that you shouldn't punish a puppy.


In the future if you have an annoying puppy (most of them are), find a trainer that knows what they are doing. It should take no more then a week or two of consistent training to remove the undesired behaviours. Not a dog whisperer, a behaviorist, force free ideologue, agility instructor, or any other nonsense. Just a good old fashioned obedience trainer like Don Sullivan that will make you a nice functionally obedient pet.

 

Oh, you mean like Pat Brown-John or Les Flores?

 

Sounds like you need a horse trainer too.. That Aussie guy looks like he has a clue, Clinton Anderson buy his DVDs .

 

Why do you say that?

 

:hammer:

 

I find the more experience I have with dogs, the less I have to punish. I must be training my body constantly to let the dogs read what I want. I have management pretty much down, know what to expect, and am confident in handling, so my dogs are confident with me.

I agree that most of the time the problem lies in the human end of the leash. There are dogs that are outside of the norms though, and rather have people struggle just to reach managing, the dog could be excelling in another situation, and the human can be enjoying a different dog that is more their speed. There oughtn't be any shame in this.

At some point, I just say, "but for the grace of God, this could be me." Is it so much better to keep a dog, come Heck or high water, until the dog does something really bad and the question becomes euthanize or not?

Sometimes the option isn't there. The rescue will put the dog down. The dog has a bite history, the shelter will not take him. We on this site are so set on choosing a breeder that will take their puppies back, but if someone utilizes this option, then how terrible! Whatever. It's the beauty of the internet. We can tell people what they should do, and no one never need know what we have done, less we blab.

 

I agree with you. I was not qualified to deal with a dog like her. I knew this and had told the breeder I did not want a dog with high prey drive and who was alpha. Apparently she did not appear to be like that at the breeders.
The last thing I wanted was for someone to get hurt and I also did not want her to be put down.
Yes I have put obedience titles on dogs and raised lots of puppies, but her temperament was beyond my level of experience. I'm not ashamed of that. I also know that now with being much older and more mature I will be a much better dog trainer than I was when I was 19 and my dog got her first obedience title..

 

I do agree with you to a point. And a bad fit is a bad fit. I just feel that people get so hung up on things that they can't see the forest for the trees.
At the end of the day a dog is a dog and a puppy and a baby are remarkably similar. If you raise a puppy with fair and consistent rules keeping sight of it's individual self and being mindful of it's spirit you will be successful. If you insist that it must be what your vision is and it will abide by method A you are setting yourself and the dog up for failure.
I love the working side of the breed. I ended up with Shadow. At some point I had to let go of the preconceived notions and embrace the dog that stood before me. And what a gift she is. If I had continued to force her I would have missed the treasure I had been given.

 

Sounds like a pretty nice life to me. I don't know what luxury you think I have but I am nearing 50 and working on a whole second career after 22 years of working on call 24/7 . My dogs are not a luxury they are part of my life. I work hard to provide for myself and them and you net your butt if I had the luxury of being able to spend my days strolling on the beach I wouldn't be gripping about a leash getting tangled. I live in a major city and actually have to exert myself to provide for my dogs. I titled OB dogs back in the day as well. No big thing. Sit stay come heel down. Basics now. Nothing more. CKC shows are a game of points anyway.
Your posts have gotten progressively more whiney. You sent her back. Move on.

Oh my goodness, do you really think that I do nothing but walk on the beach all day? Lol that is funny. I wish that were true. No, I am 56 and I run a home based business that requires me to do hard manual labor and powertools. I cut tree branches and turn them into pet supplies for small animals. It keeps me going pretty much all day long. Going to the beach is something that I should do more often but am not able to because of work and other responsibilities. After many years of very hard struggles, traumas, losses of children and challenges I was finally able to get a dog again and it was supposed to be a wonderful reward for all that I had been through, but sadly it wasn't. But in spite of all of that, my life is full, busy but happy and will be even better when I have found the right dog for me.

 

Oh my goodness, do you really think that I do nothing but walk on the beach all day?

LOL ... well I'm in NV now so yeah what's a Beach?? I've heard of such things as fleas and mosquitoes also ... those most suck.

True but no venomous snakes, spiders or other creepy crawly things.

 

this thread has so run it's course.

You returned the puppy. End of story. I see you talk about being "alpha" and "correcting" and continuously posting the standard for temperament but nothing about what you did to create a bond and actually teach the puppy what alternatives to the bad behavior is acceptable. You hated this puppy. You were scared of her and she brought you no joy. You 100% made the right choice to return the puppy. Some people here are thinking because the puppy wasn't right for you and some people here are thinking it's because you weren't right for the puppy.

And really...it's all a moot point now anyways. Because you returned the puppy. So let it go already.

 

You want to know what I did with her? I got up every morning at about 5 and we went for a nice long walk together, after that we would play for about half an hour in the back yard. When it rained we played in puddles together because she loved to splash in the water. Whenever I ran errands she went with me, if I was able to I would take her into the store with me for socialization. I still have dog biscuits in my pockets that I would give to her whenever she met someone and for whenever she did something good. I took her by plane up to Canada with me to visit my mother for a week. I took her to the beach, I took her to the barn.
I tried and tried to make it work. I spent money on private trainers in hopes that it would work.
Hate her? I loved her very much and I still cry at her loss. You have no idea how much I miss her in spite of the challenges I had with her. Everywhere I look I see reminders of her, a chewed edge on a box, her crate is still in my truck, toys in my car. A dog bisquit or bit of dog hair under a bed.

 

To continue a correction or any protocol that doesn't yield the desired results over an extended period of time seems odd.....I must have assumed incorrectly regarding your earlier comment to me..." How many gsd have you trained ............"?.....I took that as a flexing of your training prowess muscles.....sorry, my mistake.

SuperG

 

Oh no, not at all. I vaguely remember making that comment but I don't remember in what context it was. Please refresh my memory.

 

No. I don't want to know what you did for her. It no longer matters. That is my point. So let it GO!

 

Well let me tell you that it does matter. There are other people and there will be other people who have done all that they can do and have come to the point where they realize that there is nothing more that they can do. Others who love their dog in spite of the fact that it is not going to be a safe member of society if it remains with them. I want them to know that it is ok to admit that they have done all that they could do and that it is ok to let the dog go. Neither they nor the dog are failures if they chose to do that.

 

You have made your point. Before you ever started this thread, there were many of us here who think rehoming is sometimes the best option. What I see is you getting yourself upset over and over again over a decision that was done before you even posted. You did what was best for you. If you read this forum for a long time you will know that most of the time when someone has a a puppy they can't handle, there are solutions to fix it. I would much rather see someone try five or six things before giving up than saying, Oh, someone else gave a dog back, so I should, too. You will also see there have been times in the past year when a lot of members here have told someone to give up a dog, for all good reasons. It's not black or white one way or another. I keep reading this thread in case there is new information but it's become an exhausting slog. I doubt someone new will read over 250 posts to justify a decision. The longer this gets the less that is going to happen.

 

Sure you are right she is gone and there is nothing more I can do. But telling me what you perceive I did wrong is not helping others who are at the end of their ropes and have exhausted avenues that there is more that they can do. By saying I did things wrong you may be setting others up for someone being injured and a lawsuit.
Owning a German Shepherd can be a huge liability if it is mismatched with the wrong person. Look at my mother with all her experience as a trainer. She once had a dog that was nearly as high maintenance as Aria. She knew this dog was beyond her many years of experience and sent her back. My mom is an excellent trainer and did all the right things. The dog was just not right for her and that is ok.
So please don't keep saying I did things wrong, you words aren't affecting me, but they could have an affect on someone else who needs to know that it is ok to let go.

 

I think that there is part of you that is questioning your decision. Why worry about what a bunch of strangers say on an anonymous internet site? Why keep justifying your position.

You had reasons to do what you did. And you made the decision that seemed right at the time with the information you had. Let it go at that. At least you didn't kill your dog, as I did. My dog, first dog, first GSD, working line/pet line cross. I was convinced he was dominant, independent, aggressive, stubborn, alpha. I thought crates were cruel and babygated him in my kitchen when I went to work. Every day he took everything not nailed down and put it in a pile on my kitchen floor, added a few turds of his own, and some fluid, and chewed half of it up, and every day I would come home from work and lose my mind.

But he was this dream dog that I wanted all my life. Frodo. He grew. And it didn't get much better. When I tried to walk him, he dragged me around. He wouldn't be house trained. He would growl at little children. Finally, I put him out on a chain with a dog house, and fed and watered him outside. Every so many months his chain would break, and one time, he got run over by a truck. It broke his leg in many places. The vet wanted to put a rod in it, but that would have cost $2000 twenty years ago. She told me to crate him. Take him out twice a day to relieve himself. It would heal. It did. But it was crooked. When he ran it flew out in an odd direction. And it pained him when it was cold and damp. He was 18 months old when that happened. As he got older, the pain bothered him more. He came back to live in the house, I crated him during the day and let him out when I got home, and his house manners did improve. But obedience training with his poor leg like that was out of the question.

I moved to my own place and got a female puppy, and that worked ok. Until, one day before work, Frodo would not let the younger bitch eat. I got mad and told him to kennel, he wouldn't. He was becoming more and more irritable. I grabbed him by the collar to make him obey. He grabbed me by the wrist, then I knew I couldn't back down, I grabbed him again and he bit me in the hand. Got three of my fingers bloody, but looking backwards, he could have done much worse. He was 7 years old. I did not have any resources at the time. Perhaps if I would have found this site, if I had internet access. Perhaps if...

I figured he was an alpha, dominant dog, and was aggressive, too much of a liability with kids living next door. I took him to the vet and put him down. Twenty years later, I can say that I failed that dog. I made every mistake under the sun with him. I can say now that he was not socialized to children and when they stared into his eyes, the low rumbling was a warning. I can say that bite was done with much inhibition. I can say that from the get go, that dog would have never gotten that bad, if I knew then what I know now. There were other incidents. He had recently lunged at my sister when she made kissy noises to him. I figured he was not right. He was stubborn and not easy to train. But perhaps, I was inconsistent and impatient and unrealistic with what I expected from him. The dog taught me a lot. If there was one dog I could do over, it would have been him.

But I can't.

It isn't easy to give a dog back, to admit that the dog isn't suited to you. It is a question that only you can answer, whether you did the right thing. Others will tell you you did, and others will tell you you didn't. They don't matter. They don't know. They know what would have been right for them if they were in the situation you described. First, you couldn't have possibly described the whole of it. And secondly, what you describe, they have to perceive and that is rarely an accurate translation. It doesn't matter. We can beat ourselves up over questions like this, and at the end of the day it really doesn't help. Maybe if it makes us approach the next one differently, may be it was worth it.

I hope there is meeting beyond this life, so I can tell Frodo how very sorry I am.

Sure you are right she is gone and there is nothing more I can do. But telling me what you perceive I did wrong is not helping others who are at the end of their ropes and have exhausted avenues that there is more that they can do. By saying I did things wrong you may be setting others up for someone being injured and a lawsuit.
Owning a German Shepherd can be a huge liability if it is mismatched with the wrong person. Look at my mother with all her experience as a trainer. She once had a dog that was nearly as high maintenance as Aria. She knew this dog was beyond her many years of experience and sent her back. My mom is an excellent trainer and did all the right things. The dog was just not right for her and that is ok.
So please don't keep saying I did things wrong, you words aren't affecting me, but they could have an affect on someone else who needs to know that it is ok to let go.

 

I think also that the opposite can be true. Some people become LESS patient, less realistic, etc as they get older.. partially because we are tired! People have children when they're young for a reason!

I'm not sure that people have said you made the wrong decision .. for you. That doesn't make it the right decision (or wrong decision) for any other struggling puppy owner that reads the thread .. if they can manage to make it through the entire thread.

 

If there really is a per post word limit on this forum. It must be in the hundred thousands. LOL.

 

Does it matter? We have people sharing their experiences with their dogs.

 

I thought it was 1000 words per post max. Guess I should check the rules. But I am not counting words. I've gotten truncated once or twice. Oops. I don't think it is a bannable offense, not like posting the u-tube of "I think my dog's a democrat."

 

Yikes, I would ban that too.

 

I'm certain that most of you are tired of hearing from me and about the Aria situation. I know you had said I need to let go and move on. It was hard because I just was so confused, something just didn't feel right about all of it. Well what I learned yesterday from the breeder's wife was that missing puzzle piece. Aria has more respect for men than for women and because of that I didn't stand a chance right from the start. I'm still sad because I love and miss her, sad that I invested 4 months and a lot of emotions in a dog who didn't love me back the way I was hoping, but relieved to know that I really had done nothing wrong and that hopefully my next experienced will be much more positive. .

 

Aria has more respect for men than for women and because of that I didn't stand a chance right from the start .

Sorry... but that is absolute BS.

You earn respect from a dog.

Men might have a bit of an edge with some dogs because they have a deeper/firmer voice and tend to exhibit more dominant body language, but there is no dog on the face of this planet a dog savvy woman cannot get respect from.

 

Some dogs tend to be more comfortable with women and some men. I used to think it was more who the breeder is. The pups, if not socialized to the sex opposite of the breeder might feel more comfortable with the sex of the breeder.

And yes, some dogs do better with a deeper, firmer tone of voice, and the more confident posture that men sometimes exhibit.

But, I think the breeders that you are talking to are wrong that this dog cannot function with a female or respect a female. I've never seen it.

Yes, dogs can have preferences. But I think people are more set on preferences than dogs are. Lots of times bitches gravitate toward men, and dogs gravitate toward women if there is a choice. Not always. And guys for some reason often want dogs. I'm a gal, and I particularly like bitches. My nieces, one likes dogs, one likes bitches, and their mother has promised them one when they are 12, and they had better figure out what sex they want, LOL.

We get a pup to be a companion, to be affectionate, to be responsive. It was certainly a bad match, you should not believe that this is normal for the breed or lines. It isn't.

 

I don't have a lot of posts but I've spent a lot of time with rescue dogs in New Orleans because that's mostly what we got in the downtown area, and thankfully people are smart enough to adopt instead of bring more dogs from outside to a place that has plenty of dogs to offer.

Sorry for rambling off.

Getting to the main point, I think that rescue dogs are a good test group for this because they are pushed to their trust-limits in my opinion. I've gone through the process multiple times with two of my friends, my ex girlfriend (miss you Mister), and myself alone the last time (when I got Aaliyah).

It's been clear each time that dogs will naturally gravitate to the opposite gender for me. I'm more than sure someone will respond with a couple of scenarios where I am wrong. But in my experience, 4/4 dogs (all under 1 year when brought home) I have been around while they were really getting socialized/raised, showed more direct signs of affinity to the opposite gender

I mean is it really that hard to believe? With natural instinct and all? They aren't exactly as rational as us to step back and realize hey this is a different species then me I should be objective when considering who I really like.

Just my opinion!

 

thankfully people are smart enough to adopt instead of bring more dogs from outside to a place that has plenty of dogs to offer

So by your logic...the people who chose not to adopt and instead carefully chose a breeder and purchased a pup that would fit their lifestyle and needs are stupid?

I find that sentiment incredibly offensive.

It's been clear each time that dogs will naturally gravitate to the opposite gender for me. I'm more than sure someone will respond with a couple of scenarios where I am wrong. But in my experience, 4/4 dogs (all under 1 year when brought home) I have been around while they were really getting socialized/raised, showed more direct signs of affinity to the opposite gender

I mean is it really that hard to believe? With natural instinct and all? They aren't exactly as rational as us to step back and realize hey this is a different species then me I should be objective when considering who I really like.

Just my opinion

Yes it is hard to believe. I have literally owned and worked with dozens of dogs. Lots of fosters. Both bitches and dogs. I have never had a single problem as a woman getting the bitches to bond with me. Or for them to respect me. Nor have I heard that from the many many contacts I have heavily involved in dog sports and rescue.

And that's the issue - that the OP claims that the breeder told her the pup would never respect her as much as she would a man. And that is complete and utter BS. There is not a dog on the face of the planet that exhibits that kind of sexism.

Some dogs may be conditioned to love or fear or respond better to a specific gender based on their experiences. Some dogs respond better to the softer higher pitched voices of women. Some respond better to the deeper and firmer voices of men - but ALL of that can be overcome by a skillful handler of either gender.

But we aren't talking about dogs with a questionable past, but a brand spanking new pup that was raised by a woman.

It is absolutely ridiculous to blame the dog's lack of respect for her prior owner because of gender. It was a mismatch of personality. A dog that required a different skill set then the OP possesses.

 

My goodness this thread is crazy.

OP, I for one am glad that you recognized that this was a bad match and that you had chosen a breeder with integrity that quickly took the puppy back. Had you not this could have been a bad situation.

I am disheartened by the replies you have gotten in this thread. I don't have enough fingers or toes to count how many times members have told a buyer to call a breeder and return a bad fit, but then here you come with a story and reason why, and get crucified.

People, in the end, it was a bad fit. Why is irrelevant. It just was. Maybe in another home this dog will shine. In this home she would not have. Period.

Hindsight is 20/20 and it is so dang easy to armchair train/own/handle and it's easy to assume that YOU could have done sooooooo much better than the OP, but not a single person here was in OP shoes. Leave the judgement elsewhere.

Be glad that the OP recognized a serious issue in the match and made the right decision for her/him and the puppy. And be glad the breeder stepped up. Quit trying to make someone feel like they are wrong, just because you(collective) think you are right and could do a much better job.

Sorry. Getting off my soapbox now, but still shaking my head.

 

I like you. :smile2:

 

She is good people.

I am going to close this thread. I think it has run its course.

ADMIN Lisa