They are not socializing their dogs!

Socialization is VERY important.

You should socialize your dog with babies, kids, adults, older people and other animals. ​

 

IMO it's too many people buying pups from byb's and puppymills. Pair that with poor socialization, you get a bunch of aggressive dogs.

 

I came here to say just that!

 

Alot of people get dogs and do not train them and no not socialize them, they just stick them in their backyard and call it a day.

That creates out of control aggressive dogs.

 

I think the byb'ing often results in dogs with poor temperaments, weak nerves, fear, and anxiety issues. My girl was a rescue and I socialized her around people and other dogs and she still became dog aggressive. I was lucky in that I was able to turn that around through vigilant training.

I think there is a higher propensity for a dog becoming aggressive when you combine a powerful breed with a lack of training.

 

I definitely think it's both. Socialization is ridiculously important and people don't get it and it's not just as a little puppy if you don't get them out for a few months they are going to backslide some. Now granted once they are an adult you can probably go a bit without extensively socializing but it definitely doesn't stop at a few months old because you did a good puppy foundation. Of course lets not forget the BYB bad genetics that certainly don't help.. Plus most that get BYB are uninformed owners so they don't have the experience to really handle a well bred dog let alone a poorly bred one with a ton of problems which is why I forget who said it but it is even more important to go through a reputable breeder for someone looking for "just a pet"

 

Aggression can be caused by many aspects of a dog's temperament. It could be fear, it could be genetic (remember that GSD's are supposed to have SOME aggression in them!), bad breeder breeding nervy, fearful dogs, it could be lack of socialization, it could be a bad experience, it could be a strong minded dog without boundaries.

I don't buy blaming aggression on lack of socialization as a root cause. Can it contribute to a dog that is fearful? YES! But I don't believe it causes aggression. I can socialize Jax all day long and she will still react aggressively (out of fear) towards other dogs. Not all of them, but there is always one she takes a dislike too. This is a dog that has always been around other dogs, horses and people. But, for a dog that has only seen small children in a public settings, she is instinctively gentle with them. So her LACK of socialization with small children and babies had no affect on how she reacts to them.

 

Socialization is not the be all and end all to a dog's temperament. There are dogs that are extensively socialized and are still aggressive and then there are dogs that are never socialized but have a great temperament.

There isn't just one thing to blame but I think most of the scenarios comes down to poor breeding choices.

Also, keep in mind that most people post when they have a problem. My dogs aren't aggressive but I don't start threads about how not aggressive they are (well, sometimes I do ). And if you look at the aggression forum against the rest of the board, the number of posts are actually quite small in comparison.

 

Jamie:

They may be small in comparison because there are a lot of what I call chat or interest threads that take up a lot of the days threads along with picture threads. There is nothing wrong with those threads but aggressive dogs are a big problem. There have been several in the last couple of days and there were two at least, just this morning. I see them off and on regularly. A couple of them recently did not recieve too many replies. It's maybe too hard to give advice on. I'm not arguing it just seems mor important than some of the stuff that goes on forever. Like "Monday in court".

 

Good point Jamie.

I think it is a two fold problem. One is bad breeding, but another, and maybe even more important, are bad owners. People buying a breed because they like the looks, but are neither prepared for nor understand the breed itself.

 

I agree there's a lot of chat but even if you look at it in comparison to real threads, it's small. And I still think it's small compared to the number of GSD owners out there that haven't even found a message board because they aren't having issues.

Not trying to downplay the issues, just point out that it may be a skewed.

 

Andy, yes, a message board really is a bad place to get advice on dealing with temperment and/or aggression issues. Only good advice we can give people is where to go to get help and to have the dog evaluated (and even then you have to find the right help).

 

I'm getting tired of hearing people say it is socialization. Crap. I socialized my puppy from day 1 and still am making sure it continutes. Took her to obedience classes, but I still had a problem with some dogs which became apparant at 1 1/2 years of age.. She did not recover from a few bad experiences with dogs when she was under 1 1/2 years of age dispite how hard I worked to get her over it. She is now getting better. Now if I did not socialize her, or obedience trained her I wonder how bad she would be.

My English Setter was never socialized to the extent I did with my GSD - I didn't know about it. Never had one problem with her in her 14 years.

 

I'm getting tired of hearing people say it is socialization. Crap. I socialized my puppy from day 1 and still am making sure it continutes. Took her to obedience classes, but I still had a problem with some dogs which became apparant at 1 1/2 years of age.. She did not recover from a few bad experiences with dogs when she was under 1 1/2 years of age dispite how hard I worked to get her over it. She is now getting better. Now if I did not socialize her, or obedience trained her I wonder how bad she would be.

My English Setter was never socialized to the extent I did with my GSD - I didn't know about it. Never had one problem with her in her 14 years.

Probably can't really compare the standard temperament of a Setter with a GSD, I don't think.

But also, it is statistically invalid to make comparisons using a single individual.

Socialization is very important of course BUT it won't make "a silk purse out of a pig's ear". That is socialization can only work with the basic genetic temperament material that there is there.

 

I still think it has to do with socializing.

I heavily socialized my boy since he was 11 weeks old, he is now 2.5 years old. He goes to the dog park, we never have any issues. He has numerous dog friends, he gets along with strange dogs. I just took him with me to visit my breeder, he did GREAT and the breeder was very impressed with how he behaved, he interacted with some of the adult dogs and 8 week old puppies that were there and he was great with them all.

He is very well behaved with everyone, babies and adults. He goes with me to childrens birthday parties, he goes with me to my mom's beauty salon, he comes and visits people at the cancer hospital where I work, he can be around a group of motorcycle riders, on monday I am taking him to the parade in my town.

He would not be as great of a dog if he was not socialized as much as he is/was.

 

I still think it has to do with socializing.

Everyone thinks that until they get enough experience with dogs to learn that you can socialize all you want, but if the dog has issues it'll still have issues.

Dante has weak nerves. I knew he did from the minute i met him. I've socialized the wazoo out of him, and he is still a nervebag.

Some dogs live 10 years tied to a tree in the ghetto, and finally get rescued by some kind soul after animal control finally takes the dog or the owner goes to jail or whathave you. The dog never received any socialization at all and yet it's the nicest dog you'd ever meet.

It's just how it is.

 

Laren - I think socialization part of helping fearful dogs be better and confident dogs be great. But I don't think it's the root cause. I'm just starting to learn about imprinting. Very interesting! Look it up!

But I still think genetics are the basis for the most part.

 

O.K.

 

BTW, does anyone know of any studies that were done regarding the relative influence of genes vs environment (i.e. socialization) in forming doggy temperament!

 

Yeah, you are right you can't compare the two breeds temperments.

According to the behaviouist I went to, she believes that socialization only makes a difference in the 1st 20 weeks and that anything you do beyond that is not effective.

 

Yeah, you are right you can't compare the two breeds temperments.

According to the behaviouist I went to, she believes that socialization only makes a difference in the 1st 20 weeks and that anything you do beyond that is not effective.

Wonder what a behaviorist would say about the difference between "socialization" and "training' - are these the same or different?

 

I don't like to put this all on byb. There are plenty of byb that breed dogs without aggression issues, it just happens that there is a higher percentage of aggressive dogs that come out of byb breedings then out of reputable breedings.

I got my dog from what I believe to be someone that is in between those two catergories, and he is the friendliest, sweetest, GSD out of all the ones that I have met. There is not a single dog or person that he does not like, even the ones that have "attacked" him before. I met both parents, met the breeders, and could tell this was going to be a good dog. There are no Sch titles in his pedigree, only a lot of OFA marks. Now, I have met people with dogs out of amazing "reputable" breedings and all they wanted to do was tear my pup's head off. One of my neighbors is proud of his "police dog" sire and "nervous wreck" dam puppy that is about the same age as mine that she can't take anywhere but 5 feet outside her house. The most recent thread about an aggressive dog, that pedigree has more titles in the sire then my entire 3 generation pedigree combined!!! So don't blame this on byb, this could happen to any dog, from any pairing.

I do completely understand that genetics plays a huge role, but just to blame it on byb as soon as someone says their dog is from this place or that place, or that its a store bought puppy, is completely wrong. The sad part is none of us will ever be able to pin point it because we weren't there with the dog as it was growing up and seeing how the owner interacted with the pup. From my short time on the board and just being in the GSD world, byb is more likely to produce a docile "family friendly" dog rather than an aggressive one.

 

I don't like to put this all on byb. There are plenty of byb that breed dogs without aggression issues, it just happens that there is a higher percentage of aggressive dogs that come out of byb breedings then out of reputable breedings.

I got my dog from what I believe to be someone that is in between those two catergories, and he is the friendliest, sweetest, GSD out of all the ones that I have met. There is not a single dog or person that he does not like, even the ones that have "attacked" him before. I met both parents, met the breeders, and could tell this was going to be a good dog. There are no Sch titles in his pedigree, only a lot of OFA marks. Now, I have met people with dogs out of amazing "reputable" breedings and all they wanted to do was tear my pup's head off. One of my neighbors is proud of his "police dog" sire and "nervous wreck" dam puppy that is about the same age as mine that she can't take anywhere but 5 feet outside her house. The most recent thread about an aggressive dog, that pedigree has more titles in the sire then my entire 3 generation pedigree combined!!! So don't blame this on byb, this could happen to any dog, from any pairing.

I do completely understand that genetics plays a huge role, but just to blame it on byb as soon as someone says their dog is from this place or that place, or that its a store bought puppy, is completely wrong. The sad part is none of us will ever be able to pin point it because we weren't there with the dog as it was growing up and seeing how the owner interacted with the pup.

I agree in that you can't blame aggression completely on one thing. I think there are more aggressive dogs out of byb than reputable breeders but to say all dogs from byb are aggressive would be incorrect.

I believe lack of socialization can also be another factor leading to aggression but to say all aggressive dogs were unsocialized is unfair and false. I socialized my dog like crazy and she still became dog aggressive.

Bottom line is, the cause of aggression is different for every dog and complicated. Often it's a combination of many factors (genetics, upbringing, environment, experiences).

 

I wonder if it is possible to get a count of so-called aggressive dogs and find out what percentage came from a byb .vs. 'respectable breeder'. Probably not but that is the only way to really know where the majority of aggressive dogs are coming from. I have seen several posts by people with such problems that have dogs from respectable breeders. I also wonder how many breeders in this forum would be willing to admit that they have produced aggressive dogs. I also wonder how many people are denying that they have an aggressive dog. "He only bit one person" "He only bites the mailman" etc...
OK, no more wondering.

 

I guess I'm not very worried about where the majority come from, its more like it would be nice to see how many dogs are aggressive and come from byb and how many dogs are aggressive and come from reputable breeders. So...(just making up numbers), 20% of all dogs bred by byb are aggressive and 15% of all dogs bred by reputable breeders are aggressive. It would be interesting to see the difference in percentages.

 

One of the problems in GSD's that I think is much worse (more common!) than overly aggressive dogs is "shy" dogs. Way too many of the show GSD's that I see are shy or fearful and shy away from people and actually hide behind their owners! And naturally this will lead to "fear biters" as they get to be older pups and adults!

 

I think aggression IS a problem. And can be a problem with a good or bad dog.

I know it's been said a million times...they are not labs. They are not supposed to be labs.

The problem is that you add in being overly popular, bad breeding, people trying to force "social" onto their dogs, etc and it is a receipe for disaster.

Of course there are lots of good GSD's out there. And there are, IMO, good GSD's that ARE aggressive in a BAD way...but because they are in a home that is bad for them: not enough mental stimulation, poor leadership, etc.

It's telling that people label their GSD's superstars that are so sweet to everyone, even the ones that are horribly mean to them. Is that really what you should have with this breed?

Nor is a lack or presence of titles in a pedigree an indication that someone is a byb or not. A pedigree full of titles does not mean that the person pairing the dogs has any clue other than "this is a male, and this is a female...and I'm gonna have them mate."

 

Many times a dog with aggression(usually fear based) is not managed properly to bring them thru it, because the owner has no clue how to deal with it. Either they treat them with kid gloves or too much compulsion, and those ways don't usually work.
I've had dogs all my life and until Onyx came alone, never had to deal with FA.
I don't remember placing emphasis on socializing my other pups and they were just fine.
Luckily help(thanks Jean, Ruth and Val from this board pointed me to good books and I was able to manage her better.
Her FA is based on her genetics, not her socialization. And we continue to manage her behaviors~probably for the rest of her life. I don't have her pedigree, 'breeder's' first litter...

 

This sounds a lot like the old "nature vs nurture" question that scientists have been asking for years, about people though. If one of all you guys figure it out, I bet there is money in the answer. Good luck!!

 

The answer is both And I'm living proof of it.

 

I don't think it is nature vs nurture....you get the nature, then you have to nurture what you've been given to grow it to its potential.

 

The human genetic pool is much larger than a GSD~not sure how it compares temperament-wise?