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Discussion Starter #1
I have what appears to be a black sable male here, 63 days old. All I can say for him right now is he’s a whiner with a wimpy bite and disappointingly low prey drive. “Professionally” vaccinated weekly plus a 5 way (I call animal abuse!). Hopefully he’ll feel better soon… Frozen (AI) grandsire was purported to have been a real “throwback.”
I don’t pretend to be an expert, but I do know a little bit about genetics. According to the current Scientific consensus, I try to think of “paternal” as “nuclear DNA”, and I try to think of “maternal” as “mitochondrial DNA.” In order to squeeze this many generations into an 800 pixel pedigree, one must be willing to think in very broad generalizations...
abstract.jpg


All nuclear DNA in this pedigree stems from ZL:XII, and all paternal gggg-grand dams descend from klodo. The mitochondrial DNA behind the sire springs from lene hundin & sali von der krone (mother daughter duo, late 1800’s). Of note back there is phylax SVALT 990551. Again, I’m no expert, but these are the only living GSD pedigrees I’ve ever seen that don’t come from hektor? Both maternal grand dams (“mitochondrial DNA”) dead end @ “zps no info.”
To put it politely, this looks like awfully “close breeding” to me… what say you?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I suppose I should qualify, I'm a little biased against him because the only thing he seems to have learned from his breeder was bad habits, and I've seen for myself what too many vaccinations too soon can do to a pup.
I've been away from gsd for 20 yrs. In that time I've trained schnauzer and dobe, using prey as a foundation for training, which made it very easy. I've also evaluated a number of litters. Compared to this black sable, all had phenomenal drives and grips.
I am aware of the prey vs civil debate, and I'm the first to admit I'm probably in over way my head here :) In this pup's defense I'll add that he passed the umbrella test with flying colors and isn't the least bit gunshy. He actually seems to enjoy both. Very inquisitive.
Can we get back to the bloodline/pedigree now?
 

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sorry - used to real pedigrees....this gives me a headache....not a geneticist, just a breeder with a pretty good knowledge of pedigrees....don't even understand what you are asking here.....when you go back far enough, all dogs go back to original SV foundation lines...



Lee
 

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I think bias against this puppy is on you, not him. So glad you found a redeeming quality in your 9 week old whiny, no drive puppy..

I'm with Lee. I have no idea what the point to your question is or what you are trying to ask. Just post the real pedigree.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I have no idea what the point to your question is or what you are trying to ask. Just post the real pedigree.
this is "the real" pedigree, and hence the point

557897


So I just did some more clicking on the database, specifically the lines that dead end in old czechoslovakia. Sure enough they took me right back to ZL:XII as well.

when you go back far enough, all dogs go back to original SV foundation lines...
No, this entire pedigree comes from one lone dog. Nothing “hypothetical” about it. In terms of “genetic bottleneck” this may as well be a standard poodle pedigree. If it’s just this pup, or just that litter, or even just that breeder, I guess it doesn’t really matter. But if this pedigree is typical... I don’t mean to be negative. I’m only being realistic.

The breeder assumed that straw wasn’t closely related to his girls. Next time he’ll probably use a multi-sire cocktail, only to get the same pedigree.

In any event, if it isn’t already apparent, you can bet your boots we’re going to get right down to the bottom of ZL:XII in very short order here with little utz vom regenschirmbeißerhaus. No cult of breed. No cult of type. No grading curve. Strictly pass or fail. On a positive note, he got a nice grip on my pantleg today and I drug him around pretty good. I’ll keep you posted.
 

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Maybe you need to go to a science/genetic board....this diagram is not a "pedigree" although in pedigree format....and your "question" is not clear ....sorry - can't help
 

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The pedigree is just displaying the old DDR Zuchtlinien, if you post the pedigree which includes the names of the dogs, you will get more help and insight from others.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk
 

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this is "the real" pedigree, and hence the point

View attachment 557897

So I just did some more clicking on the database, specifically the lines that dead end in old czechoslovakia. Sure enough they took me right back to ZL:XII as well.



No, this entire pedigree comes from one lone dog. Nothing “hypothetical” about it. In terms of “genetic bottleneck” this may as well be a standard poodle pedigree. If it’s just this pup, or just that litter, or even just that breeder, I guess it doesn’t really matter. But if this pedigree is typical... I don’t mean to be negative. I’m only being realistic.

The breeder assumed that straw wasn’t closely related to his girls. Next time he’ll probably use a multi-sire cocktail, only to get the same pedigree.

In any event, if it isn’t already apparent, you can bet your boots we’re going to get right down to the bottom of ZL:XII in very short order here with little utz vom regenschirmbeißerhaus. No cult of breed. No cult of type. No grading curve. Strictly pass or fail. On a positive note, he got a nice grip on my pantleg today and I drug him around pretty good. I’ll keep you posted.
I'm not sure what you are on about. But I can guarantee this is not a pedigree.
ZL: XII (12) Utz v Haus Schutting - Gelmo v Hooptal
It is absolutely not possible for a dog to be his own sire. Sorry. Also the dogs has been dead for about 50 years or so. Not closely related to anything breathing today.
 

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Thanks Sabis mom. The question is still nonsensical but at least we know the basis!


That number simply signifies a sire LINE as tracked by the DDR. It's entirely possible to have the same sire line top and bottom if the number carried thru several generations because it's connected to the offspring (and their offspring and so on) of one particular dog.

That doesn't mean they are inbred. It's like my gggg grandfather having a number assigned to all his progeny and their offspring. By the time it gets to our generation, we're barely related.
 

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There also were several changes through the years. Adding and subtracting names and lines including ZL:XII if I am reading it correctly Found and posted the info in a new thread.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I'm not sure what you are on about.
Well my large animal vet friend who did the AI on the side, received the pup & akc application in the bargain. Having no use for it herself, she dropped him off at my place. Therefore I am willing to concede that I have no real right to complain.

I can guarantee this is not a pedigree.
spoken like a true gsd breeder. I have no doubt you'd give me that guarantee in writing.

It is absolutely not possible for a dog to be his own sire.
don't even bother trying to pettifog on this thread

the dog has been dead for about 50 years or so. Not closely related to anything breathing today.
Ah, ok, I see what you mean. Little gründereffekt vom flaschenhals is like 22.5 generations removed from that dog. I should really just shut up and tack another title on his ped, then breed him to another czech import cousin, right? What could possibly go wrong?

557924
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Line XII dogs include Amigo vom Odland, Arek v uns Heimaturt, Aron v Sachsentram, Bac vom Sachsentraum, Bilbo & Bullet v Schladebacher Wäldchen, Blek v Haus Hess, Candy vd Knappenmuhle, Carl-Heinz v Wartneberg, DeJuco Gizmo, Diego v Thostgrund Bach, Dino and Duke v Felsenschloss, Doc v Benedict, Don v Furstendamm, Don v Rio, Dragon v Felsenschloss, Dux v Haus Kading, Eddie vd Old Lady, Eggo v Ammerberg, Eik and Enzo v Clausberg, Enzo v Gräfental, Filou v Kaolinsee, Frei v Baruther Land, Gero v Guckelhorst, Gero v Rockenberger Schloss, Golf v Ritterberg, Hector & Hugo a.d. Espenstätte, Henk vd Junkerheide, Ingo & Kaiser vom Casa Nossa, Iroc v Haus Iris, Ivo von Hauental, Janosch vd Sperlingsbucht, Just Fagen v Kistha Haus (Rookie), Kliff v Redefiner Land, Klockow's Uncas, Lärry v Wolfseck, Lux v Kameruner Eck, *Mentor v Haus Iris, Napoleon v Weltwitz, Pluto v Königswaldereck, Puck v Gräfental, Quaid v Alt-Ostland, Quando vd Grauen v Monstab, Queick v Ludwigseck, Rasputin vom Flossgraben, Ron v Ludwigseck, Satan De L'Avia, Tino v Felsenschloss, Vulcan v Huerta Hof, Willi, Wocker & Woddy vd Old Lady, Yasso v Schäferliesel, ...
thanks for the help
 

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I’m just curious but is your pup a mix of Czech and DDR? Czech has their own numeric system that follows the sires lines and is a bit easier to understand.

I really have no business being in this conversation other than I’m just very curious but seems to me that the Czech sometimes used DDR lines but DDR did not use Czech lines?
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I’m just curious but is your pup a mix of Czech and DDR?
in terms of genetics it's easiest to think/speak in terms of "patriarchy." ie; ddr x czech, or more correctly, ddr x z Ps
Czech sometimes used DDR lines but DDR did not use Czech lines?
DDR founders came from pre WWII gsd lines. The old czech (z Ps) lines were almost exclusively founded on DDR sires. Some dams trace back to designations like cspkp, chspk, ukk (et al). As far as I can guess, those were eastern bloc conformation org #'s? The only other exceptions I'm aware of were appx 4th generation gsd x carpathian wolf backcross dams bred by czech & slovak military. I'm sure my saying so will start a big 'ol hootenanny here:p but that's where they appear to go nevertheless.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Thanks Sabis mom. The question is still nonsensical but at least we know the basis!

"ZL: XII (12) Utz v Haus Schutting - Gelmo v Hooptal
ZL: XIII (13) Klodo v Boxberg"

speaking of nonsensical, klodo v boxberg(ZL:XIII) was utz v haus schutting's (ZL:XII) sire...
so I guess another annotation is in order? Look at all that diversity!
557930


By the time it gets to our generation, we're barely related.
if you say so, jax....

california's entire holstein herd is founded on 2 bulls, and they're doing just fine, right? that's only 100% more foundation sires than we find in little gründereffekt vom flaschenhals ped

The effect of genetic bottlenecks and inbreeding on the incidence of two major autoimmune diseases in standard poodles, sebaceous adenitis and Addi... - PubMed - NCBI
 

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Klodo v Boxberg was born in 1921, a mere 20 years after the breed was first created. The vast majority, if not all, GSDs go back to Klodo. Correct me if I'm wrong, but pretty much all modern breeds were started with very close line breeding and often times inbreeding. I think your oversimplified 'pedigree' is not of much use when looking at genetic diversity.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I better get this down here while I have it straight: ZL:XIII klodo vom boxberg sired ZL:XII utz vom haus schutting AND grandsired ZL:VIII odin vom stolzenfels

also, for the sake of this discussion we should clarify, "inbreeding" = as closely related as 2 can get (sire x daughter, son x dam, full sibling x full sibling). Anywhere we find a skip or space (spaces) between 2 individuals, we're looking @ "linebreeding"
 
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