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Discussion Starter #1
I think we have all heard the complaints about IPO as a breed test and the statement that with it's faults it's the only thing we have.


So what would your ideal breed test be? Use your imagination!

I'll start...

I've "read" about the following one and heard that is was part of the old Czech testing. I have no idea if that is true or not but it appeals to me.

Handler and dog are walking down unfamiliar road when someone runs out of the woods and attacks or aggresses towards the handler, and then escapes back in the woods. Dog is released to track the bad guy down and hold him.

I'm shaky on the details but to me a test like this would test the dogs protective instinct, nerve, and tracking ability.

What's everyone else think?
 

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I don't mind the IPO test, as little as I know about it (I've seen a little work but mostly just reading about it). I just wish the training was more available and more popular. To me the problem isn't the test, but the fact that its not accepted by more people. The more we get people to accept that a GSD should be tested (titled) the more likely Schutzhund will grow into more populated and reachable areas. Right now I'd have to drive a minimum of an hour to reach a training place.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
That is one of the problems that a lot of people have with IPO, so many would consider an hour an easy drive.....

I am not disrespecting schutzhund at all, I've enjoyed training in it. Some people feel that it has evolved more into a sport then a true breeding test.

Just thought it would be nice to get some discussion going!
 

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I don't mind the IPO stuff when trained and done right, but I also like a lot of the SDA exercises. In obedience I'd like more agility type stuff (not the sport agility, but exercises that test the dog's physical abilities), stuff you have to actually train for not things that are just a given for any reasonably healthy dog. In SDA protection I like that there are exercises that DO NOT include any bites and yet the dog MUST engage until the handler recalls and I like the greeting and re-greeting for control. In general I like how the SDA exercises showcase the dog turning on and turning off.
 

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There should also be some way to test the dogs stability.

For example, have the bad guy jump out of the woods and rush the dog and handler, then run away. Right after that have a group of young children come around a corner and the dog & handler must walk through the group.

I want to see that the dogs knows when to turn on and off and CAN turn off after being turned 'on'.
 

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All of the things mentioned above are already part of the SV breed test. They are just poorly executed and useless in the majority of cases. An attack out of the woods and attack out of the blind are pretty much the same thing and both can be trained for and judged at such a low level that the test becomes useless.

The problem with the test that is used now is the execution and interpretation, not the rules.
 

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The things I mentioned are part of SchH/IPO? What am I missing? I've never seen the greeting and re-greeting outside of SDA, though I'm not that familiar with PSA or ring. Also as I said I like to see the dog tested *without* the security of biting. There are multiple bites in every level of SchH/IPO.
 

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I had never thought about some of the agility exercises for testing health and endurance. Anything come into mind?
I'd like to see climbing and jumping higher and jumping farther. While as someone who does SchH, SDA (which has a jump sequence) and the sport of agility I definitely appreciate a clean jumping dog, at the same time I don't really get the practical or breed test application of a dog clearing 1meter. I'd be more impressed to see a dog go over 2meters but won't sit there and say he can't brush his rear foot or tail. Clearing a 1meter jump is purely training, if the dog is physically fit enough to do Schutzhund in general I do not see how this jump height actually challenges the physical abilities of the dog. Jumping that height is technique/training.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I was hoping this thread would get a little more participation, but that's ok!

Fast brings up a good point.

Let's say we develop our own breed test. How do we keep it pure? How do we keep it a test of the dog and not the trainer?

Do you think that a simple pass/fail would help?
 

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When I think of "testing" the breed, I think of combining some of my favourite sports. I consider both versatility and asking the dog to complete a wide variety of tests.

I would love to see a combination of PSA/IPO, Agility, Police Dog Skills (jumping into a moving car to engage helper, scaling tall walls, jumping through windows, high jumps, etc). I would love to see the dog engage the helper in many different strange locations, in the house, in the barn, in water, in a forest, in a crowded place, in a dark alley.

My point being; I would love to see the dog tested everywhere, not just on the field he knows so well. NOT routine. When a dog preforms well and it is not routine, I find that says a lot about the dog. That is why I don't think JUST a SchH3/IPO3 alone makes a dog breed worthy.
 

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Any type of test or evaluation used to make breeding decisions is only as valuable as the person making the final decision. There are many breeders I know who just want a quick title so they can breed "legally". Then there are those that have a higher standard and do far more testing above and beyond those titles (if they even title at all). All standardized (i.e. fair) tests will have weaknesses and good trainers will figure out how to train dogs for the tests.

If you have specific needs and standards than support the breeders that meet those standards/needs.
 

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Do you think that a simple pass/fail would help?
I think that's a step in the right direction. But I would take it a step further and say to just have an evaluation. Simply have the judge give a description of what he sees and let the breeders decide what, if any, breeding the dog does.

It has never made a lick of sense to me that you have a judge, many of which have less experience than you or your club members have, look at your dog for 15 minutes and think that they know more about that dog than the owner or people that train with the owner. And then we give that judge the power to disqualify a dog from breeding.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I think that's a step in the right direction. But I would take it a step further and say to just have an evaluation. Simply have the judge give a description of what he sees and let the breeders decide what, if any, breeding the dog does.

It has never made a lick of sense to me that you have a judge, many of which have less experience than you or your club members have, look at your dog for 15 minutes and think that they know more about that dog than the owner or people that train with the owner. And then we give that judge the power to disqualify a dog from breeding.
:toasting:

I found myself looking for the like button....ROFL
 

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I would like to see the dogs in more situational exercises as well. Testing stability is a big thing, being able to turn on and off, and refocus. Endurance would be nice, but I think that often goes back to the handler being able to keep up with the dog. Practical agility, as far as the dogs going over/ through/ entering uncomfortable things (elevated grates, swing bridges, etc.). Working in the dark. This seems to be a biggie for some of them, many won't engage or search in the dark.
I think it all comes back to stability. If you have a stable dog, they will trust you through almost any training.
 
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