German Shepherds Forum banner

1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
264 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Do any of the breeders here know anything about WUSV Harmonisation?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ok22z4orjsewuxk/WUSV_Harmonisation-04.09.2017.pdf?dl=0
English translations are on some slides.

What I find interesting is the creation of an international data base of character assessments (temperament tests) to be conducted on young dogs between 9 and 13 months. (If I am understanding the slides correctly.)

"In a Character Assessment the behavior and flexibility of a dog is determined by the confrontation with different stimuli, which can trigger or provoke a certain behavior. Through the behavior throughout the whole examination lets one conclude what the nature of the dog is. The goal is to test the dog as objectively as possible on its suitability to live together with people in today's environment."

"Commands are limited to the most necessary. For this reason, performance tests (BH, IPO, etc.), where primarily learned and conditioned behavior is tested, are not a substitute for a Character Assessment. The age of the dog to be tested should be between 9 and less than 13 months.(After reaching sexual maturity). A negative rating “aborted“ can only be pronounced if the dog is gun shy or if the dog is highly aggressive in peaceful situation or very anxious.The character assessment can only be repeated once."

"During the test a certain degree of pressure should be generated to determine whether the dog is able to cope with the various stress situations. Pressure is generated by an unknown test side and the different test situations."

"Successful participation in the assessment is entered into the Pedigree and clearly marked with a stamp on the Pedigree"

"The assessment starts with the impartiality test.The behavior of the dog is checked at the ID check, tooth control and measuring the size on a platform.The result is recorded in the assessment form by ticking the adjectives. The resulting credit rating is used for later statistics. (Database) Help for future breeding plans of the breeders. Example Rating Level 3:naturally, good natured, pleasant, balanced, self confident, well manageable. Example Rating Level 2:cautious, inexperienced, nervous, still manageable, temporarily angrily. Example Rating Level 1:scared, insecure, angrily, hardly manageable, breaking off the exercise."

"The next category is the social behavior of the dog. Here is tested:1. How is the behavior between dog and dog handler (role playing)2. Behavior in a group of persons 3. Encounter with a foreign dog."

"The next category is the sound sensitivity of the dog.Here is tested:1. Sound source motor 2. Sound source chain 3. Gun shot. In this category the dog has to deal with different acoustic stimuli, e.g. rattling, noise source motor and as the highest exposure to the gun shot."

"The next category concerns the motion safety of the dog.Here is tested:1. loose table 2. instinctual aim on the loose table 3. height sensitivity. In this category the dog is rated for play readiness under increased stress and height sensitivity."

"The next category concerns the play drive and prey drive of the dog. (Part 1)Here is tested:1. Play with the dog handler 2. Play with the Judge Assistant 3. Intensity at the blocked prey Here the focus is in the game of the dog with his owner, or how does the dog play with a stranger (the Judge Assistant) and how is the intensity of the dog at the blocked prey"

"The next category concerns the Behaviour under pressure. (Anxiety on smooth ground) Here is tested:1. motion safety 2. unexpected sound3. play with the dog handler 4. intensity at the blocked prey In this category the play drive and the intensity at the blocked prey will be evaluated under pressure. The assessment of all exercises is done on smooth surface.Only a dog, who feels comfortable in his environment and can handle the situation, is able to play."

"The next category concerns the fundamental nature of the dog Here is tested:1. Isolation: the dog is about 5 minutes alone, tied outside the test side. (solitary)2. Encounter between a foreign person and the dog How behaves the dog when left alone, and how does the dog react when it encounters a foreign person."

"It is planned to establish the Character assessment within the WUSV for generally breeding."

Comments? Revolutionary? Finally, a common standard for temperament testing of all types of GSDs at a young age where genetics are a stronger influence than training. To be input into an international database for access to breeders and to act as a "stamp of quality" on pedigrees? A really good idea if done right?
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
4,680 Posts
Interesting. If we could take politics between judges and breeders and personal opinion out of the mix, I think this could be a good idea. But I think I would allow for a retest. Anyone or any dog can have an off-day.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,452 Posts
I think that overall this is an excellent idea. I think you have to weigh the minuses ( listed above) as opposed to the benefits if instituted. I would really like to see the GSDCA embrace this for benefit to the United States. I know they wouldn’t, but it is very difficult to reasonably dismiss the upside to evaluating young dogs in these areas.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31,127 Posts
From what I read, this "harmonisation" is the reason the FCI just negated the contract between the WUSV and the them.

I don't disagree with the idea of the above test but there is more the whole thing than just this. I think it's important to remember that the current SV president stated the working lines were not his idea of a German Shepherd so what is the end game for this new test?
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
18,681 Posts
I have watched quite a few of these tests. Nice test that any sound pet should be able to pass, but there are components that will fail any dog with social aggression or a less that super social nature at that age. I don't trust the SV to do anything that is in the best interest of the GSD as a working dog.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,884 Posts
Jax and Lisa -- exactly my take on it .

Since when is there ANY interest , other than trotting out the olde chestnut "the legend" of the GSD for public relations
and promotion and $$sales for their product.

they have shown zippo interest , in any other "type" of GSD . Done its best to relegate any other GSD , meaning working to the dusty back rooms , an out of sight , out of mind tactic.

cynical? yes I will admit to that ---
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31,127 Posts
More on the WORLDWIDE Harmonisation program. If I'm reading this correctly, this gives complete control to the WUSV, for all countries that are members, in regards to DNA, health testing, etc. As an aside, the OFA's are harder to pass then the SV HD/ED requirements.

02062017
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
264 Posts
Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Several thoughts come to mind which as in most social interactions concern what is the real agenda or the ulterior motive. Humans always have a working theory of what the unstated intentions of other humans might be.

1. Assumption one: Planners are neutral. As we know from reading the forums, the GSD is not free of temperament problems from the perspective of pet owners and most of society at large. Utility working dog end users also complain of the difficulty of finding good GSDs compared to the past although of course work requirements vary depending on the work. Is this temperament test neutral enough, that it satisfies both the issues of pet owners and that of utility working dog end users? Isn't it time to use science such as databases for temperament the same way OFA has their Internet accessible data base for canine health?

2. Assumption two: Planners (German SV) in a bid for greater control to maximize the profits of the German Show Line breeders who control the SV? They want to turn the GSD into a pet dog, albeit a stable pet dog? They want to "dumb down" the working lines and banish the ASL and other-non-German show lines to the dust bin of history. They want to wrest control away from FCI and national breed clubs?

3. Assumption three: Planners have had a visit from Max v. Stepanitz like the ghost of Christmas past, present and future. Let's take GSD temperament back to what I, Max, intended it to be.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31,127 Posts
@Shepdad


I don't disagree with the premise of the testing. What I disagree with is the lack of actual science in the result of the testing. You are relying on a human, with biases, to judge the temperament. Show line judges will want one thing. Working line will want another. Any question on that? Just go watch working lines show in conformation under a show line SV judge. Go watch a show line trial for a title under a working line judge. The result will never be impartial or consistent.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
264 Posts
Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
@Shepdad


I don't disagree with the premise of the testing. What I disagree with is the lack of actual science in the result of the testing. You are relying on a human, with biases, to judge the temperament. Show line judges will want one thing. Working line will want another. Any question on that? Just go watch working lines show in conformation under a show line SV judge. Go watch a show line trial for a title under a working line judge. The result will never be impartial or consistent.
Unless we use Artificial Intelligence, it will require a trained human. The way to use science is to envision ideal models of behavior from the tester, handler and the dog being tested. Videotape these behaviors and show the behaviors during judge training and post them on the Internet. The ratings are basically 3 levels: 1. Pass; 2. Pass with some concern; 3. Fail. Have videos of what constitutes 1, 2 and 3 on the Internet for education and transparency. In fact, videotape every test on every individual dog since our smartphones can do that easily these days.

As the data base grows, one can then cross-reference the results with bloodlines and parentage. Of course, this assumes, no "wink, wink" deals between breeder and judge. Have only judges known to be from WL community judge SLs; only judges from SL community judge WLs. I don't work for the SV, so this is what I would do if I was running the whole program.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31,127 Posts
Yes. I understand how scientific models and methods work. ;)


We'll see how it all plays out. Especially with the added Worldwide requirements of registering DNA and HD/ED testing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
264 Posts
Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Addendum: In principle, works the same way as Vets rating x-rays for OFA, PennHip or SV. Of course, some breeders will disagree with the vets, or the vets disagree with each other for individual results. With a large enough sample size, one expects statistical significance.

You can even have the ratings only done by a third party on video evidence ex post facto not done en situ which might eliminate the potential for "wink, wink".
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
2,462 Posts
I'd be of the opinion that the tests need to be video'd and made available publicly and not behind a paywall. Regardless of Pass/Fail.

Even if the cost of forming and submitting to the video database adds another $5-$10 administrative fee to the registration for the test.

Since some of a test like this is subjective, making unedited video available will let people watch and form their own opinions. Listed by registered name & number.

There'd be no need for it to allow posting comments or "likes" or anything argumentative. Just a searchable index, not unlike OFA.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
18,681 Posts
I believe these tests require 3 judges which, in the USA, will be cost prohibitive for most clubs. 3 judges does, hopefully, prevent some bias, but it is no guarantee. If it becomes a requirement here, I believe less people will breed survey their dogs (except the show people). Heck, finding shows and surveys is already hard enough.

I have been in this game for too long to trust the intentions of the SV. Too much money in those black/brown dogs for them to go back to a true utilitarian working dog.

I had not read that link you posted Jax08.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
264 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
I believe these tests require 3 judges which, in the USA, will be cost prohibitive for most clubs. 3 judges does, hopefully, prevent some bias, but it is no guarantee. If it becomes a requirement here, I believe less people will breed survey their dogs (except the show people). Heck, finding shows and surveys is already hard enough.
If that is the way they are planning to do it, then they are being too traditional and not maximizing today's technological tools.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31,127 Posts
I believe these tests require 3 judges which, in the USA, will be cost prohibitive for most clubs. 3 judges does, hopefully, prevent some bias, but it is no guarantee. If it becomes a requirement here, I believe less people will breed survey their dogs (except the show people). Heck, finding shows and surveys is already hard enough.

I have been in this game for too long to trust the intentions of the SV. Too much money in those black/brown dogs for them to go back to a true utilitarian working dog.

I had not read that link you posted Jax08.

And how does all this effect the WUSV team going forward? Was there not a requirement to be breed surveyed?
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
18,681 Posts
I don't know about how it will affect the team. Nothing I have read is clear about that. I doubt, at this time, even the PTB know.

No, they haven't implemented the survey requirement as of yet. They require hip/elbow ratings and a soundness test. The survey is coming.
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Top