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I had a beautiful male, he was a big boy, bout a 120 lbs and was solid. He was more of the show type. not sure which line. He passed away last year. The vet was stumped on way he died. He was only 7. Anyways,
I grew up around shepherds, my dad did schutzhund in the local club. I really would like to find a breeder who breeds a ddr/show line cross. I love the look of the show lines but love the drive of the ddr lines. Anybody know of anyone who does this cross? I plan on doing schutzhund. One day at work, this guy was dropping off some material and he had a beautiful shepherd, this dog was very impressive. After talking with the guy, he was telling me about the dog, turns out he is a retired L.A. PD swat k9 that use to work in south central. just something i thought i would share. thank you.
 

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My breeder occasionally does this cross though my boy has some west German WL in him too. He is a great dog and loves to work though we're currently doing herding not IPO. Unfortunately you probably won't get many here recommending crosses because this board is heavily working line biased with a lot of open dislike towards showlines(it's why I don't post much here anymore).

I think for the most part crossing the lines is frowned upon and you probably won't find many breeders doing it but I'd recommend mine to anyone, she's been breeding since the 70's and really knows her stuff... She used to train police k9's and was one of the founders of the original Schutzhund club of San Diego. She's not always super easy to communicate with and she's very old school when it comes to training but I am very happy with my pup. :) I can PM you her info if you like?
 

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I'd bet this is a rare cross... In simplest terms taking lines like DDR known for higher aggression/stronger nerve (balance) and low aggression & drive with weaker nerves (also balanced) can yield pups with high aggression and weak nerves (bad news waiting to happen). No matter what you end up with pups the showline folks don't like and the working line folks will be hesitate to consider bc of the problems the showline genetics might bring

You'd be better off getting a nice showline that can do the work, or a west Germain working line.
 

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I am watching the possibility of a few crosses like this, might be 6-12 months out though. I want the same thing (for slightly different reasons).
 

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I love the look of the show lines but love the drive of the ddr lines.
If this is what you're after, I'll second hunterisgreat and say that your best bet might be to get a showline dog from a kennel that emphasizes working temperament. They're out there. Gwenhwyfair on this board has been pointing out quite a few to me, and the videos I've seen of their dogs are quite impressive. :)
 

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Granted my dog also has west German WL in him too, I have to say that he is as stable as they come... He is my go anywhere do anything dog, now I am not doing IPO with him currently because I don't have the time to invest in it right now so I can't say how this cross does in that particular sport but he has great work ethic with herding, lots of drive and has amazing instinct for it. I do agree though that you have to be careful if you do decide to do this and make sure you find a breeder that knows what they're doing when crossing these lines.
 

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Huerta Hof has done a WL/SL cross, or plans to I think. Contact Robin
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Thanks for the info. I am still pretty new to the genetics of the lines. I am looking at getting a male next year. I am doing my research. Above all else I want a healthy dog who is stable. I do not want a repeat of our last shepherd. I will look in to the german wl. I live in colorado. does anyone know of good breeders out here. If not I am willing to travel.
 

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Granted my dog also has west German WL in him too, I have to say that he is as stable as they come... He is my go anywhere do anything dog, now I am not doing IPO with him currently because I don't have the time to invest in it right now so I can't say how this cross does in that particular sport but he has great work ethic with herding, lots of drive and has amazing instinct for it. I do agree though that you have to be careful if you do decide to do this and make sure you find a breeder that knows what they're doing when crossing these lines.
Nothing against your dog, and he could be the best thing since sliced bread, but on average showlines don't have near the working ability of working lines. Just like working lines will get laughed out of a show ring. Crossing the lines is just a crapshoot, no way around it.

It's risky enough crossing higher aggression working lines with sportier working lines for the same reasons
 

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I had a beautiful male, he was a big boy, bout a 120 lbs and was solid. He was more of the show type. not sure which line. He passed away last year. The vet was stumped on way he died. He was only 7. Anyways,
I grew up around shepherds, my dad did schutzhund in the local club. I really would like to find a breeder who breeds a ddr/show line cross. I love the look of the show lines but love the drive of the ddr lines. Anybody know of anyone who does this cross? I plan on doing schutzhund. One day at work, this guy was dropping off some material and he had a beautiful shepherd, this dog was very impressive. After talking with the guy, he was telling me about the dog, turns out he is a retired L.A. PD swat k9 that use to work in south central. just something i thought i would share. thank you.
I am no expert and I do not mean to be discouraging, but there are a few things you may want to consider. First, since you mention the look of the showlines, realize that a cross of Showlines with DDR lines may result in pups that do not have the traditional show line look. As such, if your desires are based on the showline look, you may not get what you are looking for.

Second, one does not usually hear DDR dogs mentioned to add drive, at least in the context of schutzhund. Now, I am not knocking DDR dogs - I have one and really like her. She has no shortage of drive, is easy to motivate and train, and a joy to have around. However, if the main goal is to add drive to the show line for schutzhund purposes, DDR lines probably would not be my first thought.

Third, I think the concern Hunter raises is a valid one that should be considered. That said, I think this needs to be assessed on a case by case basis, not based upon generalities about the "lines." Also, his point about balance is an interesting one that I have pondered but not seen mentioned much. Is nerve strength relative or absolute? For instance, a lower drive dog with less aggression may not need as much nerve strength as a dog loaded with drive and aggression in order to be balanced. What happens if the nerve strength of the otherwise balanced lower drive/lower aggression dog is insufficient to handle the drive and aggression of the other dog? I do not want to be the one to find out.

Although crossing show lines with DDR lines holds little appeal to me personally, I am not against crosses of lines if they are well thought out, the two dogs complement each other, and there is a long term goal. If it produces good dogs, great! However, crossing lines for the sake of doing so based upon generalities about the lines seems unwise.
 

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I agree with you jmdjack.
It seems to me that mixing the WL and SL's has become the new thing to do.... on fb,I read of several breeders doing it more and more. Most of the breeders aren't WL breeders, though I know of one that has added SL's into the breeding program. And using the DDR's is what I'm seeing as well.
I'd like to see how the progeny are turning out.

I don't know.....from what I've seen of a few wl/sl crosses, I'd rather not mix the lines. And really I don't see the point in it.
 

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head of my ring club head of canad actually swears the best german shep who is better than almost any mal he has ever seen KNPV, ring or whatever name it.

the best dog he has ever seen period was a showline/wl cross

this is someone who is not even into gsd and titles mals and is head of ring for my whole country and also judges ring trials

also titled a his dogs up to ring 3 and has been in comerricals and trains dogs for a living the club headquarters is in montreal

HE could not believe it himself when he met this dog, the dog was sold as a pup but quickly returned to the breeder because she was too hard to handle, it had to have been a freak of nature ? WHo knows

I do know one thing though there are a few show lines in europe i have seen for sale that i would pick over 80 percent of the working line dogs out there today. But I have only seen about 5 or 6 and they were in czech/slovakia. BUt i would rather own those dogs than most WL sheps.

A LOT of wl dogs these days any line czech, west german have a lot of problems. Breeding seems to be a very skilled ART and it is hard to produce good dogs. Does not matter if its from border patrol or whatever bloodline. After watching close you realize its not really the bloodline as so many these days are just horrible all over. Crap breeding just results into bad dogs.

Breeding seems like art to me. To get it right and end up with nice dogs being placed for real work from litter after litter? That is art.

We can just pick 2 nice wl dogs on the forum and breed them i bet none in the litter will be as good as the parents. IF done at random.
 

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In my opinion, DDR compliments certain show lines better than WGWL, but like any breeding the entire pedigree must be taken into account AND the dogs themselves. SL to WL crosses should *not* be about assuming the SL brings structure and the WL brings drive. A friend bred her DDR female to my SL male and it did not take (too late) but we are hoping to repeat. I'm actually happy with her conformation and structure and feel it is complimentary to the male. They are both medium size for their sex which I prefer but I think she will maintain and possibly bring a tad more bone. He has medium bone (not fine) but I admit I would choose a bit more bone if I could. Most SL litters right now don't pique my interest because of the linebreeding and backmassing and a lot of the WL pedigrees are starting to look the same way. Lots of "flavor of the week" studs as far as high level competition but when I look at pedigrees I'm mostly looking at the 3rd and 4th generations. I am not against linebreeding, not even really close, but not on the dogs I am seeing over and over.
 

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i agree this much line breeding i wonder if it is causing health problems? not hips or elbows or DM thats all people are concern about but other heal issues? from too much line breeding.
 

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That and I'm really picky on temperament. Most of the GSDs I see at training are really nice dogs, but not what I'm looking for.
 

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the branch of the GSD , "showlines" is pretty much similar in pedigree - the same thing can not be said of working lines , which has two branches . This is really really simplifying things. The branches in working are represented by Thuringian , quick reactive wary , and the southern -central version of Wurtembergers , higher threshold , active aggression, heavier , lower set.
In working pedigrees you can have an unbalance of too much of the quick to react , as many of the more sportier points type dogs are showing when you look at the pedigree. This type would be terrible to use with show line dogs -- could be very volatile and unstable.

So once again you have to know your pedigree history.
 

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I do know of one breeder who has some really nice puppies on the ground right now. Both the mom and dad come to the sch. club for training.
 

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I think Heidi Theis (Theishof) has done a few WL/SL crosses but I do not know if the WL was DDR.

There is a breeder in Oklahoma, near Tulsa, that also crosses lines. v.d. Austerlitz.
 
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