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@Thecowboysgirl I was not aware of that. I a Read d they came from the same origins I would of thought there was something else in there. Interesting so a another line of a German Shepherd ? with a different standard and they are not considered a bb if they are bred to a Akc white gsd in regards to the FCI? It does get weird. Lol
 

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@Thecowboysgirl I was not aware of that. I a Read d they came from the same origins I would of thought there was something else in there. Interesting so a another line of a German Shepherd ? with a different standard and they are not considered a bb if they are bred to a Akc white gsd in regards to the FCI? It does get weird. Lol

Well @Whiteshepherds maybe could help out here if I have this right or not. But I am 99% sure there is nothing behind a BBS but a white GSD, but now they breed to their own standard and so the dogs are starting to look different.

FCI recognizes BBS as a separate breed from GSD. AKC does not.

AKC only has a German Shepherd dog in their registry. UKC will register a BBS as a "White Shepherd" which is a separate thing in UKC but UKC still also recognizes White GSDs-- I think their definition of the difference is whether the dog has color GSDs in the first couple of generations of the pedigree.

https://www.ukcdogs.com/single-registration-requirements-white-shepherd
 

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Discussion Starter #84
At 1:57 - is he actually growling at her?
For those few seconds, he seems truly angry/frustrated.
Or is it play growl...since we can't see his eyes/mouth/face clearly, hard to tell.

Anyway he's big for a samoyed mix!
Samoyeds are generally medium-size dogs?
But then again, so are huskies - but my mix weighs in at 75 lbs and about 26" tall at shoulder.
(I know this because we had carefully measured him to find a crate that would allow him to lie down flat on his side)
Yes, he's growling. But I assume that it's play (but what do I know?) because he flops over on his side while pulling on my sleeve. If it's aggression, then he'd be making himself tall.

If measuring correctly, I think Tofu is 28" tall to the shoulders (definitely a lot bigger than a Samoyed) but only weighs about 58 pounds.
 

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Discussion Starter #85
13:40 here comes naughty pants who was chewing on his handler in the leopard print earlier. And he won't let judge handle him either and doesn't seem to behave for his handler either.n And holy moly when he trots afterward it looks a little like Adora's video.
LOL Yup, I definitely recognized that "I'm so bored, let's bite the handler" behaviour of Mr. Naughty Pants to be exactly like Tofu. The handler looks just like me - allowing it. SO THIS is what I look like... :frown2:


Very true that these dogs are too scared of the handling. I feel bad for them with their tails curled between their legs.
 

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Wow, you're right - at 13:40 is exactly what Tofu does!
That dog even closed his mouth (lightly, being bossy but not aggressive) around her forearm!

Adora, why do you think your dog is 50% Samoyed?
Looking at the two breeds in the two videos, and especially your dog's big long fluffy tail, I did think he looked more BB as people pointed out...and his size too, seems pretty standard for a BB?

And here's some light fluffy viewing (maybe not quite as fluffy as Tofu :):
 

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I haven’t read all the comments.

Two questions. Has this dog been trained “give” (vs take) and has he been trained “gentle”?

We can’t ask our dogs to do what they’ve never been trained to do.

I have a working lines puppy. He easily gives up his toys because I have made it a point to train him to do so. He’s also seven mouths old. He rarely nails by accident and he never bites on humans intentionally.

Tonight, he was lying next to me, grabbing my Sweatshirt sleeve, being careful not to touch the human inside, and placing my hand on his chest, tummy or thigh, whatever he wanted rubbed. We went at this game for about 20 minutes. He came up with it all by himself.

Is he a genius? Nah, he’s just been trained to be gentle around human skin. I am training him 100% no contact with all human skin except me. With me, he has to use absolute bite inhibition. Not biting down at all.

If you need, I can explain how these are done in detail.

(But if you’re planning on just sticking a prong (Or ecolllar) on the dog for this behavior , honestly, I’m not going to bother writing it all out. I don’t believe in punishing playful dogs, especially when they haven’t been trained what they’re being punished for. I know my explanation for training “gentle” posted by me as 3K9Mom is floating around here somewhere, but I can certainly rewrite it up for you).

Let me know.
 

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First, what beautiful dog and such a character -- I love that dog! I'm telling you right now, that dog is highly trainable. He WANTS leadership from you, and you're not giving him what he needs.

My second thought is that this dog is not aggressive at all (else you would be typing from the hospital). This dog is totally playing with you and you're letting him get away with behavior you do not want because you haven't told him what you think is good and bad. The result: He's having quite a bit of fun at your expense.

I didn't see you tell him in a way that was meaningful (to a dog) that you don't want him doing that. You stood there and let him gnaw on your hand. Are you kidding me? You are being VERY unfair, I would categorize it as almost cruel, because you are shaping highly irresponsible behavior that will get him in trouble and NOT correcting him. How does HE know it's wrong? From his perspective, it's a game.

Keep in mind: You ***CANNOT!!! *** break a self re-enforcing behavior using positive re-enforcement. The reason is that the dog will always drift back to what makes him feel good unless you identify (mark/correct) the behavior. You cannot replace that self re-enforcing behavior with positive re-enforcement. That doesn't mean you beat him or bonk him on the head or some such foolishness. He needs a stern NO and probably a physical correction. Don't jerk his head off. And make sure you say "NO", then wait for a moment, then correct him.

The next time he plays nicely, you mark that with a YES, wait 1 second and give him a payout. When he nibbles on your hand, sternly say "NO", correct him and withhold his reward.

Eventually, you won't have to correct him and you can use a negative - voice only marker. I suspect with this dog that behavior will vanish within a week with a slight change in your handling.

This brings me to my final point: You have shaped this dog's behavior to ignore you, bite your hand for fun, to do what he wants when he wants with no repercussions. Now you're kind of stuck. If you change the contract too drastically now, this dog will likely become upset and his stress level will go up. It is then that you could end up taking the brunt of your mistake. It kind of depends on the dog. Don't blame him. He's been allowed to act way. Now you have to work twice as hard to sensibly change his behavior.

Look at your community colleges, they have obedience classes. Go to PetSmart (Yeah, whatever for those people booing me... ). You just need some assistance in how to correct this behavior (marking it with positive/negative markers). Yes, even the trainers at Petsmart can do that, so don't hassle me.

This is a VERY cool dog with a lot of personality. You should do this right away. You don't want anything to happen to this very beautiful and intelligent creature.

Look up Michael Ellis on Google. (michaelellisschool.com) Spend an hour watching his philosophy of dog training. It will explain what works/doesn't work. He has some specific examples.
 

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Discussion Starter #89 (Edited)
Choke collar giving results

Just an update to everyone:
I've had John Bayreuther, the French Ring trainer, assess my dog 17 days ago. He is the 5th trainer I've seen. Contrary to a previous assessment by another, he sees zero aggression and zero territorial behaviours which confirms what most have written here after I had posted videos. He believes that a prong is too severe for my dog and taught me to use a choke collar. After only 2 corrections, Tofu no longer jumps up to bite my arm for a game of tug-o-war. He still will sometimes mouth my jacket but NO stops him and he sits immediately. My trainer said that Tofu was testing me and that I need to be vigilant for behaviour changes as he will test me in other matters since this area has been shutdown. It might be adolescence, but he's been blowing off COME and skips out of reach for me to grab leash/long line as well as twice ignoring another command (SIDE - where he comes and sits on my side) until I pick up the leash and then he trots over and does it without protest. Work in progress. I really wished that I had met this trainer 4 months ago as I feel that I've wasted months on improper direction :frown2:

Positive-only solution: Tofu and I also did a group focus course (before training on the choke) that was 100% positive-only training. He got excited there with restrained recalls and jumped and tug-o-war my arm when he'd reach me. I asked Lyne (Dogzworth) for advice and she said to wait for him to put all 4 paws on the ground, then click & treat. I said that it can last up to 5 minutes. She says to wait it out. You see the type of non-functional advice I get from positive-only trainers?! This is probably why you're all shocked that I allow him to bite. I'm so glad to be working with a choke collar now.
 

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Good on you for preserving!Now you'll make some good progress.Thank you for the update:)
 

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Discussion Starter #92 (Edited)
Wow, you're right - at 13:40 is exactly what Tofu does!
That dog even closed his mouth (lightly, being bossy but not aggressive) around her forearm!

Adora, why do you think your dog is 50% Samoyed?
Looking at the two breeds in the two videos, and especially your dog's big long fluffy tail, I did think he looked more BB as people pointed out...and his size too, seems pretty standard for a BB?
My trainer said that a lot of the little annoyances that I'm having with Tofu will disappear once I've established immovable rank with him. He'll stop trying to be an opportunist.

The people from whom I got Tofu said he's Samoyed x BB. I called a phone number of what I believe is the breeder to inquire about his background; but they never returned my calls. I agree that he looks 100% BB. Whenever people on the street ask his breed, I just say BB.
 

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I'm so glad you got some meaningful help. He really seems like a great dog who needed some boundaries and it sounds like this person has taught you to do that.

Ignoring behavior like that for 5 minutes straight and waiting with a clicker is close to the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Thank goodness you have a better trainer now. When I hear stuff like that it makes me crazy because these trainers think they are doing what's kindest for the dog--- and I think it's the opposite! Not only do you not deserve to be used as a chew toy by your dog, but a big wolfy looking dog can lose his life for behavior like that if it goes on long enough--- all he needed was the right kind of correction to know it isn't acceptable and won't be tolerated and now you guys can go on and hopefully have a long happy life together. What's more humane to everyone involved!?

Wish you and Tofu the best.
 

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So glad you found a trainer that is working for you and beautiful Tofu.

I'm surprised at Lyne's advice- I thought she had more experience with GSD. Oh, well--- it sounds like it all worked out and you are getting the help you need. Thanks for the update.

It's too bad it can be so challenging to find good trainers, this is one of the main reasons people give up on a dog like Tofu- not because the dog is bad, but because the trainer they seek out for expert advice really hasn't a clue how to properly address behaviors that are very common and even expected in shepherds.

Sometimes, I actually do think trainers should be regulated or require some state certification. I mean, I need certain certs and continuing ed to do my work which is arguably far less critical (as far as human health and safety) than dog training. I guess that would open up a can of worms, though. Anyway, glad it all is working out! Good for you for finding the right trainer.
 

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Wow, you were persistent to sort through five trainers!
So great that you found one that works for you and Tofu.

One note in defense of Positive: they've done studies that show positively-trained dogs working in the field will try more options, learn faster, and are more persistent. It's desirable to train your dog in a way that doesn't shut down their own initiative/thinking process. A dog that "works out" a way to earn its reward, is in the end more self-motivated and self-teaching than one has been taught that only One way is right. So it depends on what you want out of your dog...

Well, I've only taught my dog basic commands + house manners, so I'll shut up now!
 
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