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Hi All,

Thanks for giving advice.

Some responses and answers to questions posed:

1) no intention of bite sport. I just want him to have accurate and fast obedience and eventually do competition heeling (to the level that Forrest Micke has his dog trained)
2) no luck yet finding a trainer to teach me to use a prong collar
3) Tofu does settle at home and only does calm things. I still do train basic obedience in the house. The only good useful advice I ever got from my positive-only trainer was "no playing in the house" which helped fixed immediately a lot of the puppy rambunctiousness I had at 5 months (he's now almost 9 months).

I recorded our morning session outside and Tofu delivered with some arm biting (@5s he gets distracted by a helicopter and drops ball, @43s I go to retrieve that ball, @50s I mistakenly try taking a ball that he's not ready to give up yet [yes, my mistake], 3m52s he stops biting). Having the video helps me analyze what went wrong and I'd appreciate your input. I think the initial biting started from him not liking me taking his ball. Then it turned into a game and he eventually stopped because he was bored. Am I right? Is a prong collar all I need to teach him that I'm NOT a chew toy? As he's on a harness, the only thing I can do is hold his mouth shut, then he drops to the ground on his side and I let go and he continues biting... *sigh* My initial plan for the video wasn't to show him biting, I actually wanted to start with 2-ball fetch and then show our tugging. But we didn't make it that far at all. We had a little bit of biting again after i turned off video because he started digging and he wouldn't "leave it" and so I had to pull him away from the digging.

 

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Hi All,

Thanks for giving advice.

Some responses and answers to questions posed:

1) no intention of bite sport. I just want him to have accurate and fast obedience and eventually do competition heeling (to the level that Forrest Micke has his dog trained)
2) no luck yet finding a trainer to teach me to use a prong collar
3) Tofu does settle at home and only does calm things. I still do train basic obedience in the house. The only good useful advice I ever got from my positive-only trainer was "no playing in the house" which helped fixed immediately a lot of the puppy rambunctiousness I had at 5 months (he's now almost 9 months).

I recorded our morning session outside and Tofu delivered with some arm biting (@5s he gets distracted by a helicopter and drops ball, @43s I go to retrieve that ball, @50s I mistakenly try taking a ball that he's not ready to give up yet [yes, my mistake], 3m52s he stops biting). Having the video helps me analyze what went wrong and I'd appreciate your input. I think the initial biting started from him not liking me taking his ball. Then it turned into a game and he eventually stopped because he was bored. Am I right? Is a prong collar all I need to teach him that I'm NOT a chew toy? As he's on a harness, the only thing I can do is hold his mouth shut, then he drops to the ground on his side and I let go and he continues biting... *sigh* My initial plan for the video wasn't to show him biting, I actually wanted to start with 2-ball fetch and then show our tugging. But we didn't make it that far at all. We had a little bit of biting again after i turned off video because he started digging and he wouldn't "leave it" and so I had to pull him away from the digging.
A prong isn’t going to teach him to stop biting, you will. Your mistake was continuing to try to remove the ball from his mouth. Once he digs in, you can’t win. Instead, don’t ever get to that point. You can get a ball with a rope attached, make one yourself if you have a ball with a hole in it or get a Chuck It ball tug. If he won’t release the ball, you have a rope or handle to yank on. He was playing with you in the video, and you were losing the game. But instead if that, take a step back and teach him a solid Out first. Some of us use two balls to teach Out. Throw one. Then hold up the second one and say Out. When he drops it immediately throw the second one so instead of taking when he Outs, you are giving.
 

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A prong isn’t going to teach him to stop biting, you will. Your mistake was continuing to try to remove the ball from his mouth. Once he digs in, you can’t win. Instead, don’t ever get to that point. You can get a ball with a rope attached, make one yourself if you have a ball with a hole in it or get a Chuck It ball tug. If he won’t release the ball, you have a rope or handle to yank on. He was playing with you in the video, and you were losing the game. But instead if that, take a step back and teach him a solid Out first. Some of us use two balls to teach Out. Throw one. Then hold up the second one and say Out. When he drops it immediately throw the second one so instead of taking when he Outs, you are giving.
Ah! OK, I was playing 2-ball fetch wrong. I do ask for DROP and then throw 2nd ball. But your suggestion to show the 2nd ball like a treat will help.

ummm... How am I supposed to teach him not to bite me? :frown2:
 

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I commented on the first page of this thread, if a dog doesn't have a lot of drive, when going to a ball on a string, the first thing is to teach the dog to grip the ball and hold on and play tug. Then you move on to misses. You don't have to lift the dog off the collar to teach the out. You can simply hold the string and wait the dog out. What is important, IMO, is to let the dog rebite the ball as soon as he outs, as a reward.
Regarding calmness, every dog is different. My dog was a destructive maniac as a pup. He would run full force and crash himself into me. I thought he would never stop biting and aggressively trying to correct the biting just made him more persistent. I could give many other examples. Now at almost 22 months of age, he is perfect in the house and doesn't even need to be crated. I would have never expected that, but fortunately he matured out of his craziness, yet maintains very good drive in training.
As far as semantics and manners, my point is that dogs simply need to learn what you told them to do when they are displaying certain behaviors, or there will be serious consequences. The degree of punishment depends on the dog's handler hardness. It is not so much about being nice as it is you need to do this because I told you to do it. Children are taught manners. Dogs are taught to be obedient. You are not concerned about the dog's feelings. Generally, you want to be fair, but there are times when you demand a behavior. Coddling a dog and treating him like a child just creates a whole different set of problems.
I agree dogs shouldn't be coddled but I also am certain my dog has feelings and I do care about his feelings.

You talk about "handler hardness" and "teaching a dog to be obedient" in a way that makes me think you and I have a very different relationships with our dogs. I suspect our dogs are very different dogs too and I suspect Adora's dog is probably closer to mine than yours.

I've heard this debate many times where some people consider themselves to be the dog's mom and some consider themselves to be the dog's owner/handler. I feel like a have a mish mosh combination relationship with my dogs that is in some ways parent/child, in some ways equal partner in working toward a goal. They are healthy and happy and well behaved and I don't think there is a problem with our relationship. I appreciate them for being dogs, they are not children, but in many ways they are my dependent and rely on me to keep them safe and provided for just like kids. Loving them that way doesn't automatically mean you coddle them and let them get away with murder, they aren't mutually exclusive.

Some things must be done despite how I or the dog feels about it.

I know tons of people who go to furbaby and other type extremes and I agree that's not good for anything.

You said "generally you want to be fair but there are times when you demand a behavior"....yes....but for me, I only demand things to do with health, safety or wellbeing. If I get to the point of having to demand or force my dog to do something for competition, then I'm out.

I had a hard time fading a foot target out of a down on recall and I was getting creeping downs and it was frustrating. A friend of mine said I needed to go around heeling and do random downs from motion and correct him into it with a prong collar. I've never used a prong collar for any competition endeavor with my dog. I felt it was the wrong thing to do, and I felt it wasn't fair to him. Yes I care how he feels. I care if I am shanking him with a prong to make him down faster so I can get a ribbon. It's not okay with me. He is a soft dog who tries REALLY unbelievably hard to figure out what I want him to do.

I knew he was creeping because he has had huge reinforcement for coming in to me and so he's like magnetized to keep going once he is in motion toward me. He was also anticipating a reward coming in. I figured out two different ways to remote reward him from behind where he started and bam down on recall is snappy and reliable. I think that was the right way to handle my dog.

I see people competing whose dogs do stress signals on certain commands because of the way it's been trained. That's not okay with me.

He's E Collar trained not to chase deer. That's non negotiable. If I have to do wound care of whatever and he does not want me to, too bad, you're doing it. I've used a prong collar to proof leash manners walking in distracting or unpredictable environments because he weighs 90lb and I just can't have him acting a fool on a leash. I'm fine with all of that.
 

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Hi All,

Thanks for giving advice.

Some responses and answers to questions posed:

1) no intention of bite sport. I just want him to have accurate and fast obedience and eventually do competition heeling (to the level that Forrest Micke has his dog trained)
2) no luck yet finding a trainer to teach me to use a prong collar
3) Tofu does settle at home and only does calm things. I still do train basic obedience in the house. The only good useful advice I ever got from my positive-only trainer was "no playing in the house" which helped fixed immediately a lot of the puppy rambunctiousness I had at 5 months (he's now almost 9 months).

I recorded our morning session outside and Tofu delivered with some arm biting (@5s he gets distracted by a helicopter and drops ball, @43s I go to retrieve that ball, @50s I mistakenly try taking a ball that he's not ready to give up yet [yes, my mistake], 3m52s he stops biting). Having the video helps me analyze what went wrong and I'd appreciate your input. I think the initial biting started from him not liking me taking his ball. Then it turned into a game and he eventually stopped because he was bored. Am I right? Is a prong collar all I need to teach him that I'm NOT a chew toy? As he's on a harness, the only thing I can do is hold his mouth shut, then he drops to the ground on his side and I let go and he continues biting... *sigh* My initial plan for the video wasn't to show him biting, I actually wanted to start with 2-ball fetch and then show our tugging. But we didn't make it that far at all. We had a little bit of biting again after i turned off video because he started digging and he wouldn't "leave it" and so I had to pull him away from the digging.

https://youtu.be/AVIL5AUMEc8
I didn't watch the whole thing and other people feel free to disagree if you think my suggestion is dangerous but I will tell you what I would do if a dog did that to me. I'd have him on a slip lead or a prong, whatever works better, and I'd get a grip on the leash right behind his head and hold him off away from me. If he relaxes and quits trying to bite ease off pressure.

The other possibility would be a come to jesus correction to the side. (leash parallel to the ground) You probably should really get a trainer to supervise you doing that in case it doesn't go well. but this is not cool at ALL. You seem to be passively waiting for him to stop chewing on you. How is he even suupposed to know not to do that, then? How soft is he? What's he do if you raise your voice at him?

I think you need to put a stop to this yesterday, preferably with professional help. Did you list your location and get trainer recommendations?
 

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Hi All,

Thanks for giving advice.

Some responses and answers to questions posed:

1) no intention of bite sport. I just want him to have accurate and fast obedience and eventually do competition heeling (to the level that Forrest Micke has his dog trained)
2) no luck yet finding a trainer to teach me to use a prong collar
3) Tofu does settle at home and only does calm things. I still do train basic obedience in the house. The only good useful advice I ever got from my positive-only trainer was "no playing in the house" which helped fixed immediately a lot of the puppy rambunctiousness I had at 5 months (he's now almost 9 months).

I recorded our morning session outside and Tofu delivered with some arm biting (@5s he gets distracted by a helicopter and drops ball, @43s I go to retrieve that ball, @50s I mistakenly try taking a ball that he's not ready to give up yet [yes, my mistake], 3m52s he stops biting). Having the video helps me analyze what went wrong and I'd appreciate your input. I think the initial biting started from him not liking me taking his ball. Then it turned into a game and he eventually stopped because he was bored. Am I right? Is a prong collar all I need to teach him that I'm NOT a chew toy? As he's on a harness, the only thing I can do is hold his mouth shut, then he drops to the ground on his side and I let go and he continues biting... *sigh* My initial plan for the video wasn't to show him biting, I actually wanted to start with 2-ball fetch and then show our tugging. But we didn't make it that far at all. We had a little bit of biting again after i turned off video because he started digging and he wouldn't "leave it" and so I had to pull him away from the digging.

https://youtu.be/AVIL5AUMEc8
i think your #1 focus should be on finding a good balanced trainer. I watched the rest of the video and parts of it are kinda scary to me--. I think you have a chance to shut this down and still have a nice dog because of his age, but if you let it go this could turn into something much worse- that's the scary part.

When you have the ball on a string out your body language is defensive like you know he can grab and take any time and you have to sneak it out and give it to him. You've got to find someone who can teach you to own your own space, own the things with they are in your space, so he knows he can't violate your space for biting and grabbing.

Immediately you could step on that long line when he is dragging you around and walk up the line toward him so you can eliminate his ability to pull back on you. Going toward him is more likely to get him to let go that pulling away too.

Have you tried looking up your local IGP club or anything like it? Surely someone there could teach you how to stop this nonsense. He is an out of control brat but he isn't getting any meaningful feedback from you either--which isn't meant as a criticism of you, I know you don't know how to stop him because you are here asking...
 

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Ah! OK, I was playing 2-ball fetch wrong. I do ask for DROP and then throw 2nd ball. But your suggestion to show the 2nd ball like a treat will help.

ummm... How am I supposed to teach him not to bite me? :frown2:
First, don’t ever let him bite you. Never! If he puts teeth on you, the game stops instantly. More important, you need to be aware of when he is even considering it and keep your hands out of his reach and change what he is doing before he ever makes contact. My dogs do not bite me. If they were to put teeth in me to hurt me even in play, I would use a verbal blast to let them know it is not alright ever, and it would never happen again. It I thought mine was amped up and out of control, I would immediately stop and ask for a down or a Place. Then we would stay there quietly until he calmed down. This is a good example of why a newer owner or someone who is learning how to train more effectively should not try to work in drive, if that is what you were doing. That is for a more experienced handler. You don’t need your dog amped up, you need him behaving. If you work on good behavior with your dog the rest will fall into place.

Editing to add I must read Cowboysgirl’s two posts to you and I agree with everything she said.
 

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Ah! OK, I was playing 2-ball fetch wrong. I do ask for DROP and then throw 2nd ball. But your suggestion to show the 2nd ball like a treat will help.

ummm... How am I supposed to teach him not to bite me? :frown2:
Schutzhund Mirabel - Schutzhund Mirabel

Regions and Clubs



So far this is the only website that does not appear to be reward only...
https://www.seiriosk9.com/about/

Not an endorsement of them...I can't really tell by the website if they seem to have a clue or not
 

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Thecowboysgirl,
Yes, we likely have very different dogs. I was also referring to times that warrant a prominent correction being in regard to a safety issue. I also will give a quick correction if my dog fails to drop when I give the down command, but his foundation is so good I rarely have to give any corrections and a large part of that is his positive foundation with tons of work and part of it teaching him early that if he disobeys, he will be punished. I have a great relationship with my dog. He is my companion and not there for my ego. Dogs with a certain level of drive need and easily tolerate more punishment. They don't act like their feelings are hurt and just keep going on to the next thing. Depending on the dog, some have to learn to tolerate a correction and that it will not kill them. This builds resilience in some dogs. If a dog is very soft, unsure or low drive, it is a different matter.
Adora155,
I have no idea what that was or how it resembled anything suggested in this thread. I couldn't tell if you had a ball on a string or just a ball. Throwing a ball right off the bat is not going to get the game started. You have to get the dog interested in wanting the bite the ball on a string. Letting your dog bite your glove is teaching your dog to bite your glove. A harness gives you no control at all over your dog. You did some obedience right off the bat and then threw the ball. You want to get the dog interested in the ball right off the bat and then channel that drive into obedience. I understand you are just learning. I would get rid of the harness and get a prong and learn how to correctly fit and use it. I would get a ball on a string and learn how to build drive in your dog. If you don't want to use a toy, I would learn how to correctly use food via continuous reinforcement with a release command. Someone mentioned the risk of your dog ending up hurting you. I don't see that at all. You just need to decide on your goals, what approaches to use, and then learn how to use those approaches with the understanding that this is all new to you so you have a lot to learn.
 

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THANK YOU everyone for reviewing the video and notifying me that this is NOT normal puppy behaviour, NOT mouthing, and it seriously needs to be controlled. You can't hear me in the video, but I'm trying commands of "drop, leave it, sit, no" to no avail. Making a giant yell (not my nature) gets completely ignored. I hold his mouth shut and hold him by the scruff; he drops to the floor and "appears" to calm down but resumes biting as soon as I let go. I appreciate the analysis that I'm guarding my toy and need to claim my space.


Schutzhund Mirabel - Schutzhund Mirabel

Regions and Clubs

So far this is the only website that does not appear to be reward only...
https://www.seiriosk9.com/about/

Not an endorsement of them...I can't really tell by the website if they seem to have a clue or not
Thanks for being super concerned and pro-active in looking up places. I had called Schutzhund Mirabel and they don't do training; they're just a club of people to get together and train their own dogs. They had pointed me to the direction of 1 trainer who I had met on the weekend and he's compulsion training. I've left a message at Club Schutzhund Rive Sud. Club schutzhund Cyno-Sport is having a competition this weekend and so I thought to go there and perhaps get recommendations of trainers and talk to people in the sport.


First, don’t ever let him bite you. Never! If he puts teeth on you, the game stops instantly. More important, you need to be aware of when he is even considering it and keep your hands out of his reach and change what he is doing before he ever makes contact. My dogs do not bite me. If they were to put teeth in me to hurt me even in play, I would use a verbal blast to let them know it is not alright ever, and it would never happen again. It I thought mine was amped up and out of control, I would immediately stop and ask for a down or a Place. Then we would stay there quietly until he calmed down. This is a good example of why a newer owner or someone who is learning how to train more effectively should not try to work in drive, if that is what you were doing. That is for a more experienced handler. You don’t need your dog amped up, you need him behaving. If you work on good behavior with your dog the rest will fall into place.
So, I misunderstood what "working in drive" meant. I thought that it was working with any dog that wants a toy. I just need advice on how to correct my mishandling of Tofu that led up to him feeling like he has the right to bite. He's lost all thought whenever he starts biting.
 

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I realize you don't have a high drive Malinois and you are not a top level trainer like Michael Ellis in this video, but the same principles apply. His dog doesn't have a collar because of his skill level and he competes in Mondioring where the dog doesn't wear a collar in a trial. Also, the dog clearly has a good foundation training. Take from it what you can.
 

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Adora155,
I have no idea what that was or how it resembled anything suggested in this thread. I couldn't tell if you had a ball on a string or just a ball. Throwing a ball right off the bat is not going to get the game started. You have to get the dog interested in wanting the bite the ball on a string. Letting your dog bite your glove is teaching your dog to bite your glove. A harness gives you no control at all over your dog. You did some obedience right off the bat and then threw the ball. You want to get the dog interested in the ball right off the bat and then channel that drive into obedience. I understand you are just learning. I would get rid of the harness and get a prong and learn how to correctly fit and use it. I would get a ball on a string and learn how to build drive in your dog. If you don't want to use a toy, I would learn how to correctly use food via continuous reinforcement with a release command. Someone mentioned the risk of your dog ending up hurting you. I don't see that at all. You just need to decide on your goals, what approaches to use, and then learn how to use those approaches with the understanding that this is all new to you so you have a lot to learn.
Like I mentioned in the post, I didn't get to really do what I wanted to show in the video because he started biting soon after I pressed "record". I was just starting out warm up with obedience and a bit of ball throwing to after move to tugging (where he'd have some mises at the tug - he did ok last week on this).
 

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THANK YOU everyone for reviewing the video and notifying me that this is NOT normal puppy behaviour, NOT mouthing, and it seriously needs to be controlled. You can't hear me in the video, but I'm trying commands of "drop, leave it, sit, no" to no avail. Making a giant yell (not my nature) gets completely ignored. I hold his mouth shut and hold him by the scruff; he drops to the floor and "appears" to calm down but resumes biting as soon as I let go. I appreciate the analysis that I'm guarding my toy and need to claim my space.




Thanks for being super concerned and pro-active in looking up places. I had called Schutzhund Mirabel and they don't do training; they're just a club of people to get together and train their own dogs. They had pointed me to the direction of 1 trainer who I had met on the weekend and he's compulsion training. I've left a message at Club Schutzhund Rive Sud. Club schutzhund Cyno-Sport is having a competition this weekend and so I thought to go there and perhaps get recommendations of trainers and talk to people in the sport.




So, I misunderstood what "working in drive" meant. I thought that it was working with any dog that wants a toy. I just need advice on how to correct my mishandling of Tofu that led up to him feeling like he has the right to bite. He's lost all thought whenever he starts biting.
Working them in drive is kind of a blanket statement for working with their drives in a higher state of focus and energy. I'd forget about all that for now. He's hurting you already, protesting what you're telling him to do and warning you. See the willingness in your first video? He wants to do it. There's a little confusion and frustration there, but when you add in the distractions at the park and you taking the toy like that, all the little conflicts will show. I'd suggest you dial everything back, never mind playing with him at all for a while. Inadvertently you're contesting him for the toy. He's not all that focused on the toy, its more about you taking it.

This is how conflict escalates. He already came out of that down to bite you. You're going to start trying to correct him with a prong or demand an obedience in that moment, he could protest that even more. The grabbing his muzzle, scruffing isn't productive now. You're fighting with him.

I'd look to reset some things with him. Calm, easier obedience. Simple, look to end any confusion. One thing at a time for him to clearly succeed at. You want to make corrections fair in his mind, so you want a chance to do that before you're in that moment where he's standing up to you like that. 90% of my time would just be walking calmly on a leash with him for now.
 

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I can't get the link to work. Google ball on a string with Michael Ellis. Maybe someone else can get the link up correctly
Maybe this will work



But I agree with Steve whole heartedly, but I'd go find someone to help you face to face. A good trainer will be able to get you back on track quickly, whereas continuing to work with him this way, whether you dial things back or not IMHO is unlikely to work. He's learned and practiced this behavior with you for too long!
 

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Thanks for fixing the link.
Adora155,
You are seeing the adage written out in front of you, "the only thing two dogs trainers can agree on is that the other one doesn't know what he is doing." There is no recipe and many ways to train a dog. The most productive is to find an approach that works best with the type of dog you have to obtain the goals you want. I still don't think your dog will become a danger to you. He just looks too laid back and to me, and is playing with you. It still might hurt, but is just play. By watching the video above, you can see that a good deal of skill is involved in using a ball on a string. Going back to food might be a better choice, but even then, there is a correct way to use food that can get complicated. If you use food, and you want faster obedience, you have to lure with the food in specific positions and quickly, and have a release. Following a release, some people teach their dog to do a fast spin or two using the food to help them reset while keeping the dog in drive. I don't think your dog is likely to have that level of drive, but you can still get faster obedience, but you have to be more "in drive" and animated.
 

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[He's hurting you already, protesting what you're telling him to do and warning you. See the willingness in your first video? He wants to do it. There's a little confusion and frustration there, but when you add in the distractions at the park and you taking the toy like that, all the little conflicts will show. I'd suggest you dial everything back, never mind playing with him at all for a while. Inadvertently you're contesting him for the toy. He's not all that focused on the toy, its more about you taking it.

This is how conflict escalates. He already came out of that down to bite you. You're going to start trying to correct him with a prong or demand an obedience in that moment, he could protest that even more. The grabbing his muzzle, scruffing isn't productive now. You're fighting with him.
When I look at it through this lens, you're completely right that I'm fighting with him 😞 he wasn't finished with the ball and here I am CONSTANTLY taking things away from him. Because I live downtown with lots of garbage, I'm often telling him "leave it" and "drop" in addition to training to "drop" toys. He must view me as a tyrant for that... I'll dial back a few days and only have fun with him and cuddles while looking for the right trainer.
 
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