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Discussion Starter #1
Trying to spark some interesting discussion here, so who do you think is the top breeder of workings line shepherds in the USA? By top I mean who produces the best dogs, not necessarily who produces the most. Why do you feel this way?

Just for political correctness, please do not bash other breeders. Nothing against forum rules. This is an opinion. But there can surely be stats to back it up!

Thanks for info. Let’s get a good thread going...


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Define working dog, guide dog, SAR, patrol dog, therapy dog?
 

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I think the top breeders vary each year.

What is the criteria? Top titles? Number of dogs competing? Health and longevity in competing?

If just number of dogs competing and higher competition titles then last year and year before I would say Staatsmacht. Blood line was in several dogs at nationals and the wusv. But the health and longevity of these dogs are in question.

Sitz vd Hose and Olgameister (same breeders) has several dogs competing in 2018. One on the world team last year. They breed very consistent dog in terms of working ability and have for decades.
 

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I apologize for the confusion let’s just define it as sport dog


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I think it could be wrong to qualify best working line GSD breeder as a 'sport dog' breeder even if we compete in the sport and use sport to qualify breeding prospects. Wouldn't the best working line producer actually produce the best all-round working dog? Specifying a specific task to breed toward limits an already limited gene pool and effects health as @Jax08 alluded to.
 

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there are so few true breeders in the US.....there are tons of people breeding - they import European titled dogs, may title a pup or two and retain it now and then...but for teh most part 95% of the people with a kennel name are importing most of the stock they breed with.....While Stefan (Staatsmacht) does indeed have a true breeding program...his success in Germany prior to relocating is responsible for most of his high profile dogs/wins. He was sucessful there and continues to be - but the US buyer looks for a different type of dog in most cases. The US buyer wants a sport dog that can live in the house, with the family and go to club a time or two a week. The high profile people who are the most competitive go to Europe and buy young dogs with a foundation put on by a good trainer, they don't buy an 8 week old pup from an American breeder. There are people who have gone through the alphabet 2, 3 even 4 times who are still using purchased dogs to produce those litters...and actually, there are showline breeders who have more of a program than most working line people.

Lee
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I think the top breeders vary each year.

What is the criteria? Top titles? Number of dogs competing? Health and longevity in competing?

If just number of dogs competing and higher competition titles then last year and year before I would say Staatsmacht. Blood line was in several dogs at nationals and the wusv. But the health and longevity of these dogs are in question.

Sitz vd Hose and Olgameister (same breeders) has several dogs competing in 2018. One on the world team last year. They breed very consistent dog in terms of working ability and have for decades.
Interesting. Seems like some of the highly regarded dogs have staatsmacht in their pedigree. Pepper etc


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I think it could be wrong to qualify best working line GSD breeder as a 'sport dog' breeder even if we compete in the sport and use sport to qualify breeding prospects. Wouldn't the best working line producer actually produce the best all-round working dog? Specifying a specific task to breed toward limits an already limited gene pool and effects health as @Jax08 alluded to.
It could be. I was just asked to specify so it was the route I took bc it’s where most of my interest lies.


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there are so few true breeders in the US.....there are tons of people breeding - they import European titled dogs, may title a pup or two and retain it now and then...but for teh most part 95% of the people with a kennel name are importing most of the stock they breed with.....While Stefan (Staatsmacht) does indeed have a true breeding program...his success in Germany prior to relocating is responsible for most of his high profile dogs/wins. He was sucessful there and continues to be - but the US buyer looks for a different type of dog in most cases. The US buyer wants a sport dog that can live in the house, with the family and go to club a time or two a week. The high profile people who are the most competitive go to Europe and buy young dogs with a foundation put on by a good trainer, they don't buy an 8 week old pup from an American breeder. There are people who have gone through the alphabet 2, 3 even 4 times who are still using purchased dogs to produce those litters...and actually, there are showline breeders who have more of a program than most working line people.

Lee
I definitely understand stand that and agree. I am certainly one of those that wants a sport dog that can live in the house, but I think it would be nice to see the us producing bc in times like this (aka corona virus) and with the rising shipping costs, it just makes sense. It would be nice if as a country we had enough breeding programs that produced quality dogs that the need to go overseas fell. May never happen, but would be nice


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Discussion Starter #13
And, the culture is def different here than there. I know where I’m at, you can just back tie a dog to work them and people are ready to call the humane society on you, so there’s also that to account for.


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I think in general, you are less likely to find successful sport dogs that were bred in the US. A lot of the top competitors aren't going to waste their luck of the draw (and time/training/money) on a puppy who might end up not suitable due to drive or health reasons, and therefore they buy a young adult dog. The US market is not suitable for reselling started young dogs the same way that they do overseas, and as a result, most young adult dogs are imported. Many breeding programs start here, but they never quite make it to that same place that the kennel of the imported breeding dog itself was developed from. There is a small handful of breeders in the US who actually produce and title or compete what they have bred, and getting a puppy from these programs into the hands of successful sport homes can be difficult based on the reasons cited above. There are occasional dogs who are US bred and still highly successful, but its just less common, IMO.
 

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i personally think if we get another GSD down the road, i will be getting an already trained or mostly trained young adult dog. However we will see. so i'll be watching this thread :)
 

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Very much agree with @GatorDog. But I also think there are some rising kennels in this country putting out some really nice dogs, hers included.

Interesting thing I noticed last week looking at pedigrees of puppies thru Facebook - I didn't recognize any of the names in the pedigrees. I think the US is breeding certain lines and everyone has those lines while we don't even know the vast majority of kennels in Germany and the rest of Europe. If you look at pedigrees of puppies bred here, you will see the same lines. Pepper, Iron, Kinski, Lennox, Staatsmacht dogs, etc.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Very much agree with @GatorDog. But I also think there are some rising kennels in this country putting out some really nice dogs, hers included.

Interesting thing I noticed last week looking at pedigrees of puppies thru Facebook - I didn't recognize any of the names in the pedigrees. I think the US is breeding certain lines and everyone has those lines while we don't even know the vast majority of kennels in Germany and the rest of Europe. If you look at pedigrees of puppies bred here, you will see the same lines. Pepper, Iron, Kinski, Lennox, Staatsmacht dogs, etc.
I have noticed that. And then you get to the old German kennels a few generations back. It’d be interesting to know more about the kennels in eu


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I have noticed that. And then you get to the old German kennels a few generations back. It’d be interesting to know more about the kennels in eu


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Current kennels*


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Yep - flavor of the month....whoever wins or shows well at a big trial gets breedings - they use the heck out of them in Europe and then sell them here.....quickly if they are producing issues - which a couple of the popular stud dogs definitely are doing! I have had a co-bred litter or two....used a male I was not happy with due to partner....big big mistake....

Taking a female - imported or born here and just breeding to the winner/newest import over and over is pretty common here....does that make the person a "top breeder"???

I can think of maybe a half dozen people (at least on the East Coast) who have bred, trained and titled more than 2 generations of female lines....a couple of those are firmly entrenched in a club where they are the only breeder. Look at trial results, look at kennel names, see whose dogs get titled - then look at the demographics. I know breeders 3x, 4x through the alphabet....and any dog with their kennel name that is titling is in one/two clubs - local clubs trade back and forth a bit - many clubs only want their members to buy pups from one person in the club and there can be heavy pressure to do so....I have refused to sell pups to people I have trained with and to others who inquire based on whose club they are in....too many cliques and drama over puppy sales ..... people end up bitter enemies and hate each other over nonsense when someone has a litter to sell and a buyer looks at more than one litter....seen it over and over.

This is a question that is impossible to answer!!!

Lee
 
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