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Which way to teach down?

3K views 47 replies 17 participants last post by  Steve Strom 
#1 ·
I had been teaching my puppy down from a sit position. Then a video I saw said NOT to do that but teach down from stand. He said it could be “life saving”. I would like advice on which way to do it. Any advice may not matter, I may train her whichever way I feel like. But would like a few more pros and cons on it than just “life saving”.

Thanks!
 
#2 ·
If you teach down from standing they learn to drop fast. This helps with the down in motion. If you teach it from a sit many dogs will always sit first on their way down.
It all depends upon what you want. If you have taught your dog the down from sitting you can teach the dog to stand, and ask for the down directly out of the stand. If you go rapidly from stand to down and back to stand rapidly they usually get it and start going directly from one to the other.
 
#5 ·
If you teach down from standing they learn to drop fast. This helps with the down in motion. If you teach it from a sit many dogs will always sit first on their way down.
This makes a lot of since. Thank you for describing it so well.
I first taught my puppy down by luring from stand to down to stand to down, over and over. Now he has a smooth fold down.
I can see how the speed or a smooth fold down matters in competition but I’m not sure it’s ‘life saving’ elsewhere.
 
#3 ·
I am going to go with, "The exact method you use to teach something is much less important than consistency.... while making progress towards your long term goals."

A lot of the dog training videos are created by dog trainers promoting their business and their own methods. The hyperbole of 'my way is the only right way' is particularly high in this community. There are several youtube trainers that appear to have a very deep knowledge of their dogs.... but their insistence that their way is the only right way grates on my nerves.

From my experience, small-town dog trainers can be even worse. It seems that these trainers had a dog who won a contest, so they hung up their dog training shingle. They often seem to be more interested in teaching the owner 'their methods' than they are in having the dog do the activity that they are trying to teach.
 
#8 · (Edited)
@davewis Speed comes from two places, one is the individual dog's pace ( a basset hound will never move like a Mal). The other is from practicing rapid commands one after the other and speeding up over time.

The Malinois that Larry Krohn works with on videos is very fast.


So are Bart Ballon's dogs in his videos.


Both of these trainers work with e-collars. I think that helps to teach speed.
 
#9 ·
@Jorski, I've been practicing with a string of 4-5 rapid-fire commands in a row using a combination of down, sit, and stand followed by a treat. Ole seems to love the challenge. It reminds me of a second-grader raising his hand, moving to the edge of his seat, and saying, 'oh oh oh I know this' when the teachers ask a question about dinosaurs. :)

I need the self-discipline to invest the time on a good out so I can reward with toys.... but I keep getting distracted whenever the toys come out.
 
#12 ·
I know a few people who have taught emergency downs. One trains in SAR, the other is just a sport dog person. I'm still working on it as a new handler - the commands under high states of arousal is still new to me.
Sitting and luring into a down is good for the average pet home. If you are looking for a competition down where they fold backwards, you would teach to down from a stand and in motion. Steel does both but I taught him to fold backwards. My female will actually lift her rear from a sit to flop backwards into a down - she's more consistent and much much quicker.
Ecollar can teach speed, but also just plain eagerness to please can cause that speed you see some dogs perform at. I've never used E on my girl and she's fast (sometimes too fast for her own good).
 
#13 ·
I taught down from sit initially, but later on used the command from a variety of positions, and more importantly IMO, in a variety of situations by varying the three D's (distance, distraction, duration). That means, in the kitchen, in the other rooms, outside, in the park, on walks, near kids, near dogs, etc. Doing that stuff is way more important than the initial method you use to teach your dog the behavior (IMO).

BTW, even though I taught down from a sit position originally, he doesn't sit on his way to a down normally. Maybe it's because I moved on to "puppy pushups" rather soon--he sits, downs, and stands (all three have their own commands), one after the other, in a variety of combinations. First you need to make sure he knows what each means and knows haw to do it.
 
#14 ·
I dont think it matters how you start, but varying when and where and from a sit or stand are important to proof the behavior (as CactusWren states). Its important to remember the dog needs to know the down first before you ask it to do it in different situations.

The two toy game (throwing toy, dog brings back, throwing second toy between your legs behind you as dog drops first toy) will teach a very fast recall. You can also put the down in motion in this as well.
 
#15 ·
I had been teaching my puppy down from a sit position. Then a video I saw said NOT to do that but teach down from stand. He said it could be “life saving”. I would like advice on which way to do it. Any advice may not matter, I may train her whichever way I feel like. But would like a few more pros and cons on it than just “life saving”.

Thanks!
That must have been that big dog trainer around Florida. Ugh. I forgot his name.
I used to teach it from sit for Kias, but I find it both easier to teach it from standing and safer as well. When dropping from a stand they are faster. (Somebody's said this I'm sure. I didn't bother looking through.)
Example: So if he was, say, running up to a car that was moving, you could say "down" and he would drop right where he was, rather than having to slow down to "sit". The few extra feet it takes to sit could mean death. That's my belief.

It seems that there's a little bit of chance teaching it. If you live in a much more rural area with little traffic or things that could run him over (traffic:))then I would say do it from sit. But if you live in a city you would want that fast drop. It depends on you.
 
#16 ·
That must have been that big dog trainer around Florida. Ugh. I forgot his name.
I used to teach it from sit for Kias, but I find it both easier to teach it from standing and safer as well. When dropping from a stand they are faster. (Somebody's said this I'm sure. I didn't bother looking through.)
Example: So if he was, say, running up to a car that was moving, you could say "down" and he would drop right where he was, rather than having to slow down to "sit". The few extra feet it takes to sit could mean death. That's my belief.

It seems that there's a little bit of chance teaching it. If you live in a much more rural area with little traffic or things that could run him over (traffic:))then I would say do it from sit. But if you live in a city you would want that fast drop. It depends on you.
Again, not understanding the need to down in an emergency. And not picking on you honey, just keeps getting mentioned.
For competition I could see the reasoning but if the goal is safety, teach stop!
It's immediate. No need for anything else. Just stop.
I used to teach it as a safety. It means freeze, right exactly where you are, not one more twitch and wait for my next command.
 
#17 ·
I suppose I could imagine a few situations where an immediate ‘down’ or ‘stop’ could be lifesaving and also be applicable over a solid recall but not many.

-You drop a glass, it shatters around your dog. ‘Stop’ would be great.
-You’re across the street from your dog for some reason and they are running towards you, a car is coming. ‘Down’ would be great.

So I’ll admit that there is a small chance that a quick and immediate ‘down’ could be lifesaving. But I’d have to agree with @Sabis mom and a ‘stop’ would be better.

But then I’ll also have to admit, this argument is getting a little silly. We’re focusing on the ‘lifesaving’ aspect instead of which order to teach the puppy pushup sequence.
 
#20 ·
I suppose I could imagine a few situations where an immediate ‘down’ or ‘stop’ could be lifesaving and also be applicable over a solid recall but not many.

-You drop a glass, it shatters around your dog. ‘Stop’ would be great.
-You’re across the street from your dog for some reason and they are running towards you, a car is coming. ‘Down’ would be great.

So I’ll admit that there is a small chance that a quick and immediate ‘down’ could be lifesaving. But I’d have to agree with @Sabis mom and a ‘stop’ would be better.

But then I’ll also have to admit, this argument is getting a little silly. We’re focusing on the ‘lifesaving’ aspect instead of which order to teach the puppy pushup sequence.
Because I use luring to teach sit and down, and because dogs from some genetic backgrounds struggle with down I always initially start with sit. It's easier, imo, to start with sit, phase into the down and seperate them later. Once the dog understands down and is comfortable with it then I can focus on severing the link. Since I don't make puppies work, it has never posed an issue for me but I understand that not everyone thinks that way and if your way works for you and your dog then that's awesome.
 
#18 ·
At the end of the day.... for me and Ole what matters is the additions to tonight's training plan. I think this combines the best of the above advice with our overall goals :)

DOWN from STAND. No distance, distraction, or duration. Luring fine.
STAND from DOWN. ''

OUT. Goal: Drop the object to my front within one foot of my feet. No verbal cue. Step 1. Willingly exchange tug or toy for another moving tug or toy.

We will give it a shot tonight and amend or modify the plan was we improve or learn what works best for us. FWIW, this is the real value of this forum to me!!!
 
#19 ·
There's different reasons for teaching a down a certain way, a lot of them generally are related to a formal obedience that will judge it on correct position and the physical ability to perform in that way. Down, stop, wait, for most people what probably really matters is will the dog obey. A down will usually show a little more control though.
 
#27 · (Edited)
Mix results tonight.

After having already established a pretty good DOWN from SIT, it took less than 5 minutes of actual training time to learn Down from Stand. More like 15 minutes passed on the clock. We take a lot of breaks to have fun. Same with STAND from DOWN.

For entertainment value, this was the order to teach them. I started by making an exaggerated down gesture with a treat in my hand. Pup said, 'no problem, I can do this. Just lower my arms until my elbows are on the floor. Wait? What? This feels weird. I better check. (pup looks with confusion at rump.) I guess I need to make sure my rump is also on the floor." Less than ten reps and he had the basic movent nailed.

I am looking forward to tomorrow to try the new commands more quickly with verbal cues:)

'Out' was a complete failure... on my part. I managed to get us both banished from playing with toys in the house. We will try again outside in the morning :(
 
#34 ·
I hope it's not too off topic, but how does one teach a STOP command? Jupiter knows over 30 commands, but I was never taught how to do that one and it does sound handy.

Personally, if there was danger, I'd rely on my FRONT command (my recall), which is along with loose-leash walking is my main focus in training right now. Ideally I want Jupiter to eventually be able to break off chasing something and return to me in a flash.
 
#35 ·
I hope it's not too off topic, but how does one teach a STOP command? Jupiter knows over 30 commands, but I was never taught how to do that one and it does sound handy.

Personally, if there was danger, I'd rely on my FRONT command (my recall), which is along with loose-leash walking is my main focus in training right now. Ideally I want Jupiter to eventually be able to break off chasing something and return to me in a flash.
I will send you a pm later. It's easy and useful in an emergency.
 
#39 ·
As someone else mentioned ....down is a down is a down.....what worked best for me was teaching a down from any and all positions. Then proceed to teaching the dog to down at all speeds (gaits)....once a dog downs when running full speed either on an abbreviated recall or send out...I'd say you have it handled.

Downing a dog in motion, I started with the dog in the heel position moving slowly and I would stop as the dog downs ......work the pace up and then go back to the slower speed but continuing moving forward as the dog downs...and then proceed to faster speeds of travel and get it to the point where the dog hits the dirt when you give the command while running full speed.......you can take it as far as you choose I guess.

SuperG
 
#42 ·
Yep, I was getting bored with adding the verbal cues for down-from-stand and stand-from-down yesterday. So I taught him 'play dead.' it took 7 repetitions with a food lure and a belly rub for a reward. It is all about the quality of the reward!

After years of being a negative nancy.... I am starting to understand the alure of dog sports. Dog training is exhausting, but rewarding.
 
#47 ·
I had been teaching my puppy down from a sit position. Then a video I saw said NOT to do that but teach down from stand. He said it could be “life saving”. I would like advice on which way to do it. Any advice may not matter, I may train her whichever way I feel like. But would like a few more pros and cons on it than just “life saving”.

Thanks!
Unless you live in a war zone its not a bid deal or if your in competitions i guess. I think it depends on what you want from him
 
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