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Discussion Starter #1
Turkey was tolerated great.. so was fish... beef from tripe went down great too.. but the addition of chicken to the diet has made Grimm itchy. This was also true in the past when he was on a kibble diet and I would give him a chicken leg, raw, a few days in a row.

What RMBs can be a staple, when the handy, affordable, and available chix legs cause itching?
Turkey drums here are gargantuan, and seem to cause constipation. (maybe not if fed one per meal.. with lotsa MM?) Turkey necks are hard to find. Maybe I can order them frozen though? Are there any beef bones dogs CAN eat as an RMB during a meal? Like, ribs or something? I am not sure that is affordable. How would beef ribs be bought? Just as rib bones from a butcher.. or as spare ribs at the grocery? (i don't know a real butchers yet here)

Why does the chicken make him itch? Is it the hormones in the chicken? Is the meat treated, bleached slightly? Or, is it the omega balance being thrown off.. chicken having those inflammatory-enhancing omega 6s, and I need to add more salmon oil to increase those omega 3s to balance out and quell inflammation?

Looks like, to make things affordable, Grimm will have to get SOME chicken legs per week. Whatever RMB I am able to find for the rest of the week, it may be more costly and less easy to find.

Ideas?
 

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Go with the turky drums but either remove some of the bone or do only 30% of the diet in RMBs (turkey drums) and 70% of the diet in MM. And you don't have to feed the WHOLE turkey drum. You can use a hammer to whack up the bone and then use kitchen shears to cut the whole thing in half.


Just checking - chicken is the ONLY thing that has changed, right? No extra or different supplements? No new treats, no new laundry detergent, cleaners, hairspray, etc.??

I wouldn't worry so much about the 'why's when it comes to allergies. Just go with what works.
 

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Grimm could be allergic to chicken. My PF dogs litter sister is allergic to chicken and is eating a lamb and rice kibble by Eukanuba.

Can you check with local abattoirs/butchers to see if they will sell you beef trim at a reduced price if you buy a quantity at a time? I have an abattoir that sells a pet food mix for $0.59/lb. Being ground it is not ideal, however I cannot afford to pass up on that price. The ground pet food is mostly trim with fat and a small percentage of organ meat. The percentages and organs vary from day to day, but that's not such a bad thing.

What about checking the livestock ads to see if anyone is selling an older cow who would be willing to kill the animal and at least quarter it for an additional price? I think I remember you saying you didn't have a vehicle (I sincerely apologize if it wasn't you) so perhaps if you can find a person willing to kill, clean and quarter the animal for you, they may be willing to deliver too. I don't know if you have a deep freezer or not, however you would need one approximately 5' long to hold an 850lb cow. Just something to think about
I know pricing will be different for you, however just for comparison, I bought an 850 lb cow, killed and quartered, I picked it up in a minivan and it cost me a grand total of $225 Canadian plus my gas and time. I took the time to cut the meals up smaller, however the possibility exists of just letting Grimm eat what he wants to off a large chunk and keep the rest in a cooler or freezer when he is finished eating for the day. A reciprocating saw with a pruning blade is a wonderful tool to have for cutting up a cow


I also am able to get whole frozen beef hearts for $1.39/lb, so I buy those too. My dogs seem to do much better on a red meat diet.
 

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Patti, didn't Grimm have itching problems from chicken when you were still living in the US? Sounds to me like he really does have a full-blown allergy to chicken, which is terribly inconvenient, because chicken is so affordable. But since he's had the same reaction on two different continents, we can't even blame it on whatever Tysons or Fosters Farms (or their German counterparts) might be injecting into their chicken...unless it's a nefarious scheme, and they're all injecting the same stuff into their birds.

Which, actually, wouldn't surprise me.


I think Grimm is going to have to cut chicken out of his diet, cold turkey. The thing about allergies is that the more you are exposed to an allergen, the more toxic it becomes to your system and the weirder your autoimmune system can get. Weirder being the technical medical term for more sensitive, like it starts to assume similar proteins are the actual toxic protein. So, for example, you might be allergic to apples but you continue to eat apples. Not only does your body build a worse and worse allergy to apples,(so you go from having minor hives, to a major break out, to throat swelling, to anaphylaxis) but it also starts to react strongly to pears, because their proteins are similar.

Now, I know I'm mixing apples and chickens with my analogies here, but I think you understand my meaning?


Perhaps, going without chicken for years, his allergy might abate enough that you can try it again. But for now, if Grimm were my kid, I'd tell him that he absolutely can not have anymore KFC. Or its raw counterpart. Mashed potatoes yes. Original recipe chicken, no.
 

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Did you rinse the chicken off before serving it to him? Do you like chicken? If you do you could take the meat off the bones and cook it for yourself and give the bones to Grim with some ground turkey or beef. This might be a good compromise.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Sigh. Soooooooooo affordable... soooooooooo available. Grimm's breeder says that Grimm's dad can eat chicken, but not as an every day thing, because then it makes him itchy.

Get this: I just did the freaky math.. Grimm ate 1.5 bags of kibble per month, at €75 per bag... total €150. That means it cost me here in Germany to feed a premium, imported grain-free kibble (Orijen 6 Fish) $235 US dollars per month!! Somehow, someway-- I should be able to feed raw cheapr than that.. even if I must use beef as the MM! But, I don't know. Grimm needs 3 - 4 lbs of food per day. Wow. When Grimm stops growing and developing so much, I will be hopefully able to feed less!

Okay.. turkey drums can be the RMB some days, (because he ends up needing so much MM anyway.. he has to eat about 3 - 4 lbs per day total during his current growth phase.. his Dad is 111 pounds, Grimm will be large, is developing alot right now) and maybe necks others? I THINK I can order necks frozen, possibly. What do you think of turkey wings as an RMB from time to time?

Maybe I can keep him off chicken for a few months. I need to find a pretty fatty MM that I can afford... guess it will need to be beef. Grimm's breeder says he should tolerate fat very well, provided it is in raw and not kibble... something about raw having all the enzymes his pancreas needs to digest the fat and metabolize it well?

This is complicated. I am determined though to feed raw and find a way to afford this.

This is getting interesting.
Lori, Lauri, and Workingdawgs, thank you for the input!
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I hope I don't hurt Grimm giving him chicken for the next week or so.. I have chicken here in great quantity.
I won't buy more.. but will eating this chicken make him allergic to turkey next, Lori? Yikes..

Tracy, looks like the lil fishies will be a more significant part of the diet than I thought. They cost more than I thought too.. but not expensive! And, frozen whole, with guts, and not salted or smoked. Hard to think of em as an RMB, cos the bones are so soft and teeny-weeny.
 

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Why does the chicken make him itch? Is it the hormones in the chicken? Is the meat treated, bleached slightly? Or, is it the omega balance being thrown off..

My theory is, it's bc many vaccines are grown in chicken eggs. Chicken genes are injected into the dog, creating over-sensitivity.
 

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Originally Posted By: MaedchenWhy does the chicken make him itch? Is it the hormones in the chicken? Is the meat treated, bleached slightly? Or, is it the omega balance being thrown off..

My theory is, it's bc many vaccines are grown in chicken eggs. Chicken genes are injected into the dog, creating over-sensitivity.
Yes, I wouldn't be surprised. The stuff they do to food these days causes all kinds of weird reactions in humans and furry kids.

(I have all sorts of conspiracy theories about grains and genetic engineering too, but at least that isn't such an issue for you there in Europe. Or, at least, it's labeled for you when you're buying GM foods)

That said, if Grimm IS allergic to chicken, then even feeding chicken bone isn't safe. Chicken protein is chicken protein. It's not the meat he's allergic to, it's the protein. Can you feed one more week? It won't kill him, and it probably won't do a lot of harm. So if you have a huge stash of chicken and you want to have Grimm finish it off first, I don't think it would do a lot of damage. But the sooner he breaks the chicken habit, the better.

If his scratching disappears within a week or so of his breaking his habit, you know it was the chicken, and you know that he'll have to avoid it for a very long time. If the scratching hangs around more than a week or two, then as Lauri points out, it might be environmental. But since you just put him back on chicken, and since he had issues with chicken and itching before, I would strongly be inclined to find the chicken guilty.
 

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And Camper and Zamboni would like to reinforce what Tracy has said. Fish is good. Fish is very good. We like fish a lot.


Oh, and I do serve turkey wings. When I get a whole turkey and cut it up, the wings get served too. Heck, everything gets served. Just try to balance the meat with the bone. Wings have a lot of bone and not too much meat, so balance with another meat source if you have to -- like the herring, or a bit of beef, or something else you have lying around.
 

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I feed a lot of turkey wings (vs other turkey parts) because they are the cheapest turkey part I can get (at .42/lb). I usually feed just under 50% wings and the rest MM and probably a bit of MM in their other meal so it works out. It is all about finding that balance for your dog.

Mine also get a couple of lbs of fish each week. Levi loves it all; Leyna would love to pass on the sardines (she'll eat them only after spreading them out around her bowl and eating everything else first), but she likes tilapia, catfish and mackeral.
 

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Quote:Sigh. Soooooooooo affordable... soooooooooo available. Grimm's breeder says that Grimm's dad can eat chicken, but not as an every day thing, because then it makes him itchy.
You might be able to still give chicken once or twic a week, just not in a row. I feed a differnt protien source every day. Having variety in a diet on top of getting a broader nutrient base, also may help prevent senstivities to develop.

I also feed fish usually twice a week. My dogs love fish and I mostly feed it frozen. You also might want to see if you can find any source for rabbit.
 

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What about Rabbit Patti? So many people have rabbits for eating. They are 3 euros for a whole rabbit here from the hunter. I am trying to see about this other person a friend knows who raises rabbits for show and the extra are sold for food. Might be an option. Lots of bones in there. Small so they won't take up much space in the tiny freezer.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Rabbit would be great-- but they are waaayy more than €3 at the grocery store, and we don't have a hunter here in the city.
I sure wish that we did!After we move (sometimes within the year), we will be more rural.. and rabbit may be an option then-- I hope!
 

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Can you ask at the Forstampt? That is one of the places where we get meat. They sell it for consumption. They also make it for you into steaks and wurst. Or they may know of someone in the area?
I have only been to the base in Schweinfurt once. So I really don't know of anything around you.
 

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What about lamb? Is that available in Germany? I have used lamb mince as a MM and it has usually been cheaper.
 

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Chickens eat corn...this is probably why you have a problem with chicken and not other meats. I feed raw meat, too, but not chicken for that reason, unless it is organic and without hormones and antibiotics. I know other animals eat corn, etc...I guess it is wise to buy meat where you can ask the question of what is being fed as well as other pertinent questions.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Lamb is really costly here as Danielle said. It looks like he responds well to:
Beef
Turkey
and Fish.

Too expensve are:
Rabbits at the equivilent of about $14 per 2 lbs.
Lamb: waaayyyy costly

Pork-- while affordable, highly risky to feed in Germany due to danger from a virus. (Peet a European forum member mentioned it.. I forget the name of the virus)

So, we will be using: Beef, turkey, and fish (whole, small, Baltic herring)... some tripe, some turkey offal. The RMBs will be turkey wings, sometimes lower legs, and when I can find them-- necks. I add a bit of yogurt, salmon oil with vitamin E, a bit of olive oil, some brewers yeast, and a few times a week some veggie glop. Once a week an egg, whole in shell. That's it. I'd love to vary it more, but, not possible. All I can vary is the content each month of the veggie glop. This will have to do for variety.
 
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