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Discussion Starter #1
I was reading several theads, and I noticed something that can be a very confusing trend.

No one really seems to agree on what is 'fact.'

Threads I read said the following:

"IMO, temperament is..."
"Drive is....., IMO."

Should we be basing things as essential as temperament and drive off of opinion?
 

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Well, what are you calling a "fact?"

In science, a fact is nothing more than an observation that can be verified. Often times based on opinion.

However, for something to be a "fact" the outcome must be something that all testers come to the same conclusion on. Nothing in temperament and drive can be "fact" for the simple reasoning that people base their opinions on the matter on their own personal preferences.

Even when someone says the term "to a reasonable degree of scientific certainty" (or of like the statement "when pigs fly") it is still based on OPINION rather than FACT.

Very few things in the universe are absolute. Certainly temperament and drive are not even close to being one of them. It does not mean that one cannot deduce that something is more likely than not to be true based on observation and experience.
 

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I was reading several theads, and I noticed something that can be a very confusing trend.

No one really seems to agree on what is 'fact.'

Threads I read said the following:

"IMO, temperament is..."
"Drive is....., IMO."

Should we be basing things as essential as temperament and drive off of opinion?
Everyone has their own twist on everything... if there's one thing I'd share with new schutzhund people, its that every trainer that has produced a capable dog is quite sure their methods are the only correct methods. As far as drives go, they are pretty well understood, but its something thats hard to explain but much easier to show ("See that dog, its in prey drive because... see this other dog, thats what defensive drive looks like because...")... temperament is a grayer word. Some people use it to describe the entire personality of the dog, I prefer a more fine grained meaning as I explained in the other thread. There are other words to describe other aspects of the dog so my interpretation of temperament is just what I explained. Nerves are very similar. "Sharp", "Hard/soft", and "reactive" are other things people often have varying definitions of I've found. I always caveat what my definitions I'm working under are, so if someone has a different interpretation, we can still effectively communicate. If we don't have and understanding as to semantics any further discussion is useless :)

At the end of the day, no one can look inside a dogs brain, so any theories of training are simply opinion backed with experience that shows at least some degree of validity to that opinion
 

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Discussion Starter #4
It seems like drive and temperament kind of get confused with one another. (Maybe that's more where I should have gone with my first post).

In the last post I was reading, there was disagreement about whether a dog has poor temperament because of its high drive.

Or maybe I'm just confusing myself?
 

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It seems like drive and temperament kind of get confused with one another. (Maybe that's more where I should have gone with my first post).

In the last post I was reading, there was disagreement about whether a dog has poor temperament because of its high drive.

Or maybe I'm just confusing myself?
It was the interoperation of the dog's behavior as being a result of high drive, or a result of poor temperament.

According to wikipedia, the once sentence description of traits of temperament "include irritability, activity, frequency of smiling, and an approach or avoidant posture to unfamiliar events"

Obviously frequency of smiling was intended to describe children, we can replace that with wagging of tail, or dog smiling if your dog does that discernibly ;)

When describing a dog's temperament, I mean the approach or avoidant posture to unfamiliar events.
 

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If there were clear facts regarding dog psychology, there would be no trouble dogs in shelters that are unacceptable, and no poorly behaved dogs
 

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I think I know which thread you are talking about - the points being made:

A dog can have high-drive and have good temperament.

Being high-drive, and not being able to switch "off" and settle is a temperament fault.

Being high-drive in and of itself is not faulty, it is a needed and sought-after trait. But that does not mean crazy and destructive. Two different things.

Does that help?
 
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