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I was just curious as to what other breeders would do in this situation. :rolleyes:

We just got contacted by a puppy buyer who bought a puppy from our Evi 2 years ago as a PET (limited registration). Apparently he has been taking the dog to a training facility and the trainer/owner has owned and trained GSDs for many years, looks like they even do Schutzhund. Anyhow, they like the Evi son so much that they asked the guy if they can breed one of their females to the dog. Soooo the guy just contacted us asking if we would lift the limited registration. :eek:

Of course Dennis told him that in order for us to lift the limited registration he would need to do AT LEAST the following:

1. Have the dog OFA certified
2. Bring the dog to Dennis for an evaluation to see if the dog is worth breeding

I just have mixed feelings about the whole thing. I'm happy to hear the dog is doing so well and that this trainer thinks so highly of him but I think I would want to know more about the trainer and his/her dogs first. :whistle:
 

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nice that your pup is so well thought of .

I would ask for your two conditions , with one additional one and that is that you have a look at the pedigree of the female that he may be bred to and you give your blessing . The pedigree match might be horrible and then the stud gets blamed.
If you want to excercise some control in future breeding opportunities, because I am sure it won't be limited to this one female, then perhaps you can have the dog signed back so that you are co - owner and your signature is required on any litter applications. In other words they can't do a breeding without your knowledge and consent??

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs
 

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Does the dog have any disqualifying faults that would make him a pet? (Bad bite, missing testicles, missing teeth, etc.) Did you sell the dog at a discount ("pet price") because it would never be bred?

If the dog was considered a pet bc of a physical fault, then I would not reverse it. But if it was just based on your evaluation at 8 weeks, then I don't know any reason to not reverse it based on that early eval (unless the dog was really weird at that age).

If you sold at a reduced price because the pup would never be bred, I think it's fair to ask for the buyer to pay the difference before you reverse the limited reg.

My own policy is that all my puppies are sold on limited registration that is reversible with hip certification and a "performance" title or certification.

I like to know that the puppy owner has put time and energy into working the dog enough to get a good idea of the dog's working qualities and suitability for breeding--but I don't require it to be a schutzhund title--it's so hard to do schutzhund in the US and there are many other useful tasks for dogs. I believe that a GSD (any dog) needs to be demonstrably useful and the owner needs to have some reason greater than "I like him" before breeding one of my pups.
 

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I agree that the OFAs need to be done before anything else. Dennis to evaluate the dog and the pedigree of the female and before release, the buyer THEN to pay the difference between pet and working price - at the very minimum.......I also want titles of some (pre-agreed upon if not schutzhund!) - so it would have to be something special for me to let the papers go full...NEVER EVER would without OFA/a stamps tho!!!

Lee
 

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I'm sorry if my question detracts from the thread, but I'm just curious.

When I got Gunner, as a pet only, I signed a contract that required he be neutered, with proof having to be provided to the breeder.
I am not that versed in "breeder speak" :) so forgive me, but what is a limited registration?
And if he/she is sold as a pet only, why do you not require them to be spayed or neutered?
Again, just curious, as I'm sure there is a logical explanation giving that I don't know what a limited registration is.

Thanks, and sorry if it is inappropriate to ask. :)
 

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A limited registration is not giving the puppy buyer breeding rights. With a limited registration they would not be able to register the litter/puppies with the AKC. So the puppies would never be able to be registered as purebreds.
We can require the neutering/spaying of puppies on the contract at a certain age, but how can you really enforce it years later??? :shrug: Sure, some people will honor the contract, but trust me, not all of them do.
 

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A limited registration is not giving the puppy buyer breeding rights. With a limited registration they would not be able to register the litter/puppies with the AKC. So the puppies would never be able to be registered as purebreds.
We can require the neutering/spaying of puppies on the contract at a certain age, but how can you really enforce it years later??? :shrug:
Gotcha!
And yeah, I guess there are people out there that don't honor their contract.
Makes me sad that people are like that.
 

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I would certainly sign and abide by a contract that said "no breeding" but not one that required spay and neuter unless the dog had a health issue such as a retained testicle.......
 

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I'm sorry if my question detracts from the thread, but I'm just curious.

When I got Gunner, as a pet only, I signed a contract that required he be neutered, with proof having to be provided to the breeder.
I am not that versed in "breeder speak" :) so forgive me, but what is a limited registration?
And if he/she is sold as a pet only, why do you not require them to be spayed or neutered?
Again, just curious, as I'm sure there is a logical explanation giving that I don't know what a limited registration is.

Thanks, and sorry if it is inappropriate to ask. :)
I am not a fan of spay/neuter for dogs. I do not do it with my dogs unless there is a problem, and I do not require it of dogs that people buy from me.

A limited registration means that the breeder has decided that this dog should not be bred, and the progeny if it is bred should not be registered. The dog cannot be shown in conformation with a limited registration. The breeder only can lift this and provide full registration.

Limited registration should help preserve the breed by ensuring that dogs with genetic problems noticeable at birth will not be bred and have puppies that are registered. Many people use it to try to protect their puppies from being used mainly as breeder dogs. So a dog with a limited registration may not have any fault at all. They just have an owner who is not planning on showing, trialing, breeding their dog.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
A limited registration means that the breeder has decided that this dog should not be bred, and the progeny if it is bred should not be registered.
That is not necessarily true. We don't give limited registrations because there is something wrong with the puppy, rather because this way we can control who is breeding untitled dogs and/or dogs that have not been OFA'ed.
 

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Limited registration should help preserve the breed by ensuring that dogs with genetic problems noticeable at birth will not be bred and have puppies that are registered. Many people use it to try to protect their puppies from being used mainly as breeder dogs. So a dog with a limited registration may not have any fault at all. They just have an owner who is not planning on showing, trialing, breeding their dog.
It was just a little further down in the post.
 

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My thoughts are if the dog has good hips, no disqualifing faults, and good pedigree, and the other dog has the same ...what is the problem. The dogs are going to pass the genetics, not the training or the trainer. Two nice dogs from two nice pedigrees, no major faults, responsible owners.....I don't see the problem. Of course I haven't seen the dogs so its easy to say:). Good Luck....One last thing...I would rather see good dogs in the genepool even without titles than titled dogs in genepool bred because they have titles. Cause titles don't pass!!
 

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Fascinating stuff, this.
I don't want to start an argument or attack anybody, I'm genuinely curious and want to learn more.

How do you know it's a great dog without titles? Even more important, how does someone inexperienced, who is not a breeder and presumably hasn't spent years researching pedigrees (like this puppy buyer probably is) know what they have without titling?

Titles don't make a dog breedworthy, but what are some good ways to know whether or not your dog is breedworthy without going through the titling process?
 

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Discussion Starter #16
This is exactly why Dennis told the guy he would have to bring the dog to him to be evaluated. He would test his nerves/temperament. Work him, etc.
He actually brought the dog to Dennis for a training lesson back when the dog was 15 months old, and we really liked him, but Dennis would want to see him again now that he is 2 years old.
 

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I
A limited registration means that the breeder has decided that this dog should not be bred, and the progeny if it is bred should not be registered. The dog cannot be shown in conformation with a limited registration. The breeder only can lift this and provide full registration.

Limited registration should help preserve the breed by ensuring that dogs with genetic problems noticeable at birth will not be bred and have puppies that are registered. Many people use it to try to protect their puppies from being used mainly as breeder dogs. So a dog with a limited registration may not have any fault at all. They just have an owner who is not planning on showing, trialing, breeding their dog.

While this is true - it is only one of many reasons for limited papers.

Most breeders I know use limited papers to help ensure that the dog is health tested and titled/certified in some venue before it is used for breeding. It also could help protect the dog if for some reason it is re-homed from ending up in a commercial kennel where it is bred every heat for all of it's life, living in a cage/run as a puppy machine....

As I told one of my I litter owners last night - I will be DELIGHTED to sign off on the release when her dog has been hip certified and has a schutzhund title!!!! On my male pups, my contract has a clause that reserves the right to use them for breeding after titled as well - even when sold with limited papers.

I have seen two instances where the difference in the papers made a big difference in the dog's future when the dog had to be rehomed (one owner died, the other lost his job/house and owed someone money who took his dog :mad:) One with open papers ended up in a medium sized commercial breeding operation and the other with limited ended up an estate dog instead of said commercial op...

Lee
 

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The limited registration but not requiring neutering/spaying is great on paper, except nowdays people can still breed and register dogs as purebreds with the bunch of "junk" registries that are around. They might not be registering them with AKC because of limited registrations, but they can certainly breed and use one of the other registries and produce puppies without doing any health checks or getting any type of title and the breeder of record will not know because they do not have to have AKC papers to register to these other registries.
Pet shops and questionable breeders are now using ckc(continental kennel club) APR(american pet registry) and the numerous other registries and selling puppies that way. You would be shocked at the number of people who buy a puppy like this being told they are registered and assume its AKC.
So, the only way to protect your "lines" from breeding without testing is spay/neuter requirements in the contract and staying on as co owne until the requirements arefulfilled.But,in reality, if the new owner is planning on breeding they can do it without your consent or knowledge, just do another registry and make their "purchase price" back.If a person has decided to breed, they are going to get around limited registrations and contracts and do it anyway, unless you can see the dog and know what they are doing.
 

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nice that your pup is so well thought of .

I would ask for your two conditions , with one additional one and that is that you have a look at the pedigree of the female that he may be bred to and you give your blessing . The pedigree match might be horrible and then the stud gets blamed.
If you want to excercise some control in future breeding opportunities, because I am sure it won't be limited to this one female, then perhaps you can have the dog signed back so that you are co - owner and your signature is required on any litter applications. In other words they can't do a breeding without your knowledge and consent??

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs
While I understand and agree with the reasoning, it is too much control than I'd accept as an owner. I bought the dog, the dog is mine and if I fulfill the requirements for full registration (thing that doesn't exist here, so it is merely theoretical) I want to be able to decide the breedings I like. It is me, my opinion and preferences, not that something is right or wrong.

It feels like those contracts that tell you want brand of food you should feed your own dog.

Completely off topic, but you can add your name and website on you signature, so you don't need to write the same 300 times :)
 
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