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Hello all, im new here. To start i have a 5mo old shiloh shepherd. Now i know what you're thinking, this forum is for GSD. But i figured this would be the best place to look for help al Shilohs do have alot in common with GSD.
Anyways my shiloh has hit a stubborness phase. I know this phase has the potentional to last for quite some time so if she were a GSD what would you guys do in this instance? By stubborn i mean, i give a sit command and she thinks about it before sitting or just walks away. This also carries over into fetch, mind exercises, other simple commands. Really the only time she follows a command on queue is "go to bed" in which she walks to the room with her cage in it, and goes into her cage, and "stay".
Thanks for any help you can give me!
 

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I would start over again from square one.Put her on a leash and practice commands with lots of enthusiasm and praise for correct performance.Don't give her a chance to blow you off.Train for a few minutes,release her and play a few minutes,repeat.Stop before she starts to lose focus and gets tired.If you can make your interactions fun for both of you I think you'll get back on track.
 

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Mine had a stubborn streak too. I used "time outs" when she wouldn't obey. Everything stops and she got confined. It happened every single time until she learned that she looses all her freedom if she does not obey. She also got praises and an occasional treat every time she did obey. Eventually it worked out. For the streets, I had to use the Herm Sprenger prong collar. It works.:):)
 

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So far i have been starting over, but i didnt think to use the lead. thanks

Stonevintage how long do you keep your dog in the cage for each time?
 

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I would suggest the leash as well. Even my big boy has to drag around a long line if I think he is going to blow me off in a recall. That is balanced with playful praise or a nice treat when they follow through on the command.

Stubborn comes and goes.
 

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I'm with Wolfy on this one. If you're training correctly they give in to what you want pretty quickly. You are not properly incentivizing your dog, not properly disincentivizing behavior that you don't want to see, not clear in your teaching or something else is going wrong. It's operator error not the fault of the dog usually anyway.
 

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Ah I needed to read this... mines also going through this... she knows her commands but lately she insists on taking her sweet time or not at all... unless she knows we're going somewhere then she definitely will follow my command if it means getting to the park etc any faster...
 

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I'm with Wolfy on this one. If you're training correctly they give in to what you want pretty quickly. You are not properly incentivizing your dog, not properly disincentivizing behavior that you don't want to see, not clear in your teaching or something else is going wrong. It's operator error not the fault of the dog usually anyway.
Okay, what are some other incentives? Ive done food, bellyrubs, playing fetch with a ball, and me being really excited, usually 3 together and then fetch after some work, im saying stubbornness because about a month ago shewould do the command right away. Now shes hesitates
 

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OH, THANK YOU JEEBUS SOMEONE ELSE IS GOING THROUGH THIS TOO!!! (sorry, I've been dealing with the changeling and thought I was the only one).:grin2:

I have a Shiloh. And like you, I joined and stayed with this forum because the people here will honestly let you know if you're doing anything right or wrong (plus, there's no real forums for shilohs...)

From the start I realized that while Tal is smart, he also takes his sweet time doing everything, almost as if anything I want him to do, he seems to be thinking 'what's in it for me?' and 'okay but only because I have nothing else to do'. His trainer, who has a GSD and researched Shilohs before she started working with us, pretty much said that the Shilohs are the 'surfer dude' offshoot of GSDs. Or the 'lazy $#%$' offshoot of Malamutes.

My Shiloh, Tal, was the perfect puppy, aced his puppy class, I was prepping him to take his AKC STAR Puppy test which was scheduled for his 5-month old 'birthday'... The FEAR phase kicked in, and nothing I did could ease him out of it. I really wanted to take him in the route of being a therapy dog, but that disappeared (for the time being). He's also too lazy for agility and acts as if he just finished a marathon if I take him down a row of weave poles.

He started flinching away from people, so I stopped taking him to public places like pet stores, Bass Pro, etc., since he was miserable and many posters here pointed out I was probably stressing him out more than he needed to be.
^people will start heading your way when those ears go up, just so you know. So you should start learning how to body-check even small children who want to pet your puppy even if she doesn't want to be petted.

When Tal turned 6 months, he realized that he could pull the dogwalker (ME), across the street without breaking a sweat so while we never stopped training him and working with him, I suddenly now had to deal with a large, strong puppy that was beginning to test his boundaries with me. He also decided that wheels were evil, as were the landscape guys mowing the yard five houses down the block. And that water is evil and you don't realize how strong a puppy can be when he does not want a bath. And when he reached 70 pounds, it became really hard to lift him in the bathtub.

When he turned 7 months he became selectively deaf. Training and continuing his training became and continues to be...difficult. He is not food-oriented, so using treats with his training only works for a few minutes. He isn't ball-crazy, so using lures doesn't even work.

At 8-9 months he had a massive growth spurt. And realized that not only can I not pick him up anymore, but that he can outrun me because his recall went buhbye. I put the long lead on him and that stinker just picks up the %$^%&^ leash and walks himself away from me. I once lashed him to the dining room table when I was rearranging the dining room and he easily dragged the heavy table across to the living room since he decided he wanted to sit on the dogbed...

He just turned 10 months this week. We have been training with him and working with him constantly, especially with his recall, which at this point consists of him galloping over to me, then doing a 'drive-by' lick on my hand before loping around me and back out to the yard (hey, in his mind, he came when I called...)

He looks 'grown up', and I have to keep repeating 'he's still a baby he's still a baby' since it's sometimes hard to reconcile the 100-pound (typical for his line and age) animal sitting in front of me just far enough so I can't grab him is still a puppy.

Sorry...reading through my post makes it seem as if I have a nightmare of a dog and we should have named him Marley and that this Could Be Your Future since we both have Shilohs. Compared to the GSDs in the puppy classes Tal attended, he was always more mellow, perfectly happy to sit in the background and only engaged in play when he felt like it. He also learned his lessons, but it took several (okay, LOTS) more tries before he could even get 'sit'. And if we eased up our training, he would conveniently forget everything. He would re-learn, but part of me wishes his brain was pure GSD so he could catch on quicker. I know several, more experienced posters here say there is no such thing as a stubborn dog...but still...I blame those darn malamutes and 'others' that the breed founder added into the mixture.

And then again...he's a boy. In my reality, he's just a teenage boy in a dog's body. He's also - temperament-wise - submissive, which may be the reason he went into a fear phase that is turning into shyness rather than a stubbornness :grin2: phase.

One thing which DOES work with Tal is Ignore. Honestly, there are times when I really just want to blow up, but then I turn my back on him, sometimes to the point that I am literally spinning so my back is to him. Or when he's dragging me along; I will stop and if I have to, stand on the lead and turn my back from him. I ignore him until he sits quietly and/or stops trying to take my hand in his mouth (his version of mom-mom-mom...).

Maybe 'being there' but not interacting until you get the result you want will somehow cause that pesky lightbulb to switch on in that furry little brain. Hopefully your puppy's 'light switch' is easier to move to the 'on' position than mine.

Good luck. And take lots of pictures.
 

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Omg reading that does scare me! But she doesn't seem yo be very food driven either. But it helps get her attention. Much like your she doesnt like to run fast so agility is out. Funny thing, I also was wanting her to be abtherapy dog, well see how that goes. But shes still such an awesome dog, i juat have to figure out how to get through to her. As of now shes horrible at walking in a leash but thats my fault as i started her on "off leash" as a pup and got her in the dead of winter so we didn't take to many walks. I started her on leash walking but when she gets 100lbs the prong collar and possibly shock collar may come out.

But back to the topic, what are some other ways to get my dogs attention?
 

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well for starters.... don't wait until she's 100lbs, teach her now! dogs dont obey commands for 1 of 3 reasons - they don't know it (incl lack of generalization), they can't physically carry out the behavior, or they believe they have a choice. when giving a command you have to be prepared to reinforce it each and every time. reward (food, verbal, physical, toy/play), help (physical cue, lure, manipulate, etc), punish (physical correction, negative reinforcement).

in your case, if your dog is blowing you off, I'd go back to leash work and correct her for non compliance. avoiding a correction can be an incentive in itself, my only caution is that she may become leash or collar smart if you rely on this solely. in the meantime - continue to work on motivation and engagement... especially if you believe she doesn't know a command (it's not fair to correct a dog for something you haven't taught correctly).

it's not just an item that motivates some dogs - it's how you present it. play tug instead of fetch, crate her before training sessions, withold breakfast to increase food motivation, or find a higher value treat... use a clicker...
 

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Wow. I've had dogs before, so I knew I couldn't let a little puppy problem get to be a huge puppy problem....

In every case I have have raised a large breed puppy - I have put the fear of "ME" in them from the time they were about 4 mos old.

Hit them? Never! Scare the poopy out them when I was mad. Yes....I did...

To this day (mine's over 20 mos) If I tell her to do something and she does not to it, I simply stamp my foot once and she hauls but to comply. I've never hit her or touched her - but she knows, if she doesn't comply - she gets confined to her room.

Dogs know when your not happy with them, let it show - stamp your foot- say bad! confine them - they get it.... but you must reward when they do good, otherwise they have no comparison....
 

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I drove as fast as I could home so I could contact the mediator and beg that my post be deleted since I realized that it does show a worst-case scenario, which is really not what I intended (and for some reason I had a real problem trying to respond to you last night; this new webpage set up is confusing my ancient computer). I guess I expected my Shiloh to behave exactly like a GSD puppy, but there are differences, sometimes subtle, in his temperament whenever I compared them to the two GSD puppies in his last puppy class. One is from a working line (I really thought he was a Malinois since he was really lean and a sable), the other was eerily smart and dominant.


We've been lucky in that Tal's trainer loves Tal and has adapted her normal 'big smart dog' training methods to take into account that Tal is STUBBORN (and shy and sensitive [try yelling at your dog and see how long it takes for him to calm down...it takes a while] and likes to rip paper). When I walk him, I do my best to stay calm and consistent in my pace (we finished a 3 mile loop at the very stodgy but steady time of 52 minutes, but he stuck by me. In his mind, he needs me to protect him from the world, which is fair since he's still a puppy.

I don't know at this time if I would use the prong collar; I know many people here use it quite successfully but I'm afraid I'll mess it up so I stay away from one. I've never used the shock collar, and I could be wrong, but I think that the particular collar is only used in specific instances where the dog's behavior warrants it. And I wouldn't worry about your puppy reaching the 100 pound range; the girls are usually lighter (your puppy's breeder can give you an idea of her mother's size and weight and you can use that as a guide).

I still try to use treats for training, but for some reason, once I get Tal's undivided attention, I don't need treats. It's just that lately, keeping his attention on me and not on the other dogs who might have cool things, or the bird flying overhead or the cats throwing gang signs at him from the window (they are evil, I tell you, pure evil). He has two collars that he only wears either when we head out (one with all his id and rabies tags) and a martingale which I only put on him when it's time for training. I also find that taking him out of the yard, to perhaps a corner of a local park where your puppy will focus on you since everything else is new could help. It still takes me a bit longer to work with him, but again, there are far more experienced people on this website that can help you (and by extension, me) to work with our dogs.



And you MUST listen to all the great, no-nonsense advice listed here, in particular the part about not letting your puppy get away with ANYTHING. In my case, Tal can get away with stuff when it comes to my husband, who has called me the 'mean mommy'...so you also need to train everyone as well as the puppy. I have been doing that, just never realized it until stonevintage pointed out that our dogs DO want to please us even when they're driving us insane. I just give The Look (the same one that works on my husband, as he has often told me), and for the most part, I can get Tal to comply. It just takes a while.


And maybe it's just my dog, but Tal is okay being by himself, so crating him really doesn't do anything except give him a nap time. At least compared to many GSDs I've known through the years, and judging from many posters on this forum, my guy doesn't have to, must be, literally glued to my side. We will eventually add a 'real' GSD to our horde in a few years, and used to think that Tal was like our 'starter' GSD...in an odd way, maybe the GSD would be easier to train, simply because (I assume) they can be more focused.


I love Tal. Along with his selective hearing and spotty memory, he is a gentle, sweet goofball without a mean bone in that hairy body. I just wish he would LISTEN. I intend to follow the advice already listed here.
 

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Poland, Brandydan, don't compare your dogs to other dogs. I know its hard not to, but your dogs are not going to have the focus or intensity of some of the other dogs. That's true even in the same breeds of dogs. They aren't strongly motivated by much. All you can do is be patient and consistent and they'll give you what they're capable of, and that will probably be very reliable. It will be easy to maintain and they'll be easy to live with as long as you're fair in what you expect with them.
 

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well for starters.... don't wait until she's 100lbs, teach her now! dogs dont obey commands for 1 of 3 reasons - they don't know it (incl lack of generalization), they can't physically carry out the behavior, or they believe they have a choice. when giving a command you have to be prepared to reinforce it each and every time. reward (food, verbal, physical, toy/play), help (physical cue, lure, manipulate, etc), punish (physical correction, negative reinforcement).

in your case, if your dog is blowing you off, I'd go back to leash work and correct her for non compliance. avoiding a correction can be an incentive in itself, my only caution is that she may become leash or collar smart if you rely on this solely. in the meantime - continue to work on motivation and engagement... especially if you believe she doesn't know a command (it's not fair to correct a dog for something you haven't taught correctly).

it's not just an item that motivates some dogs - it's how you present it. play tug instead of fetch, crate her before training sessions, withold breakfast to increase food motivation, or find a higher value treat... use a clicker...
Haha i didnt mean i was going to wait till shes 100lbs to begin leash training. I meant that if she gets to where brandy's is, i will pull out the prong collar
 

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I know some dogs aren't treat responsive, but I'll ask what are your feeding habits like. Do you leave food down all day, or only feed at set times? You could try and vary your treats. IMHNO (in my humble newbie opinion), you need to vary the treats. 1 treat one day, a different the next, or even switch up the treats on the same day. I will say a quality name brand "shock collar" really isn't a shock collar, unless you use it wrong. I use the educator mini and I can't feel anything until level 16. On my neck, arm, leg, etc. You don't have to use one with the sole intent of electrocuting your dog. That's not how they are supposed to work if you want to use them the right way. If I was in your shoes, and I know 100% the dog knows the command, but just refuses to do it, I would first probably use a higher value treat. Cut up steak, or whatever else you want. If that fails, progress into corrections, be it a prong collar or ecollar. Ultimately, the dog needs to know you mean business, and you won't tolerate them doing their own thing. Also I'm relatively new to prong's but I feel better putting one on my dog than even a flat leash. They are honestly not painful. I can put one on my arm, and yank it like I'm trying to hit a home run at the world series and it's honestly not that bad. That being said, you would never need that hard of a correction on a dog unless it was trying to attack a child or something. Typically you can use a 1 finger tiny pull on the collar and get results.
 

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I know some dogs aren't treat responsive, but I'll ask what are your feeding habits like. Do you leave food down all day, or only feed at set times? You could try and vary your treats. IMHNO (in my humble newbie opinion), you need to vary the treats. 1 treat one day, a different the next, or even switch up the treats on the same day. I will say a quality name brand "shock collar" really isn't a shock collar, unless you use it wrong. I use the educator mini and I can't feel anything until level 16. On my neck, arm, leg, etc. You don't have to use one with the sole intent of electrocuting your dog. That's not how they are supposed to work if you want to use them the right way. If I was in your shoes, and I know 100% the dog knows the command, but just refuses to do it, I would first probably use a higher value treat. Cut up steak, or whatever else you want. If that fails, progress into corrections, be it a prong collar or ecollar. Ultimately, the dog needs to know you mean business, and you won't tolerate them doing their own thing. Also I'm relatively new to prong's but I feel better putting one on my dog than even a flat leash. They are honestly not painful. I can put one on my arm, and yank it like I'm trying to hit a home run at the world series and it's honestly not that bad. That being said, you would never need that hard of a correction on a dog unless it was trying to attack a child or something. Typically you can use a 1 finger tiny pull on the collar and get results.
This is not good advice, very confusing and conflicting. As a newbie, I wouldn't give advice on an e-collar. She needs to go to a good class and first get educated in how dogs learn and then use the training techniques that work instead of trial and error like" If steak doesn't work, try an e-collar?"
 
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