[mycobraracr]

So in my quest for knowledge, I have been studying every pedigree I come across. In 90% of the WL pedigrees you see the same "key players". So if all these dogs have the same dogs behind them, what makes one litter solid and another weak? I would guess it would reflect more on the non big name dogs. But then how do you know by looking at the pedigree if its a solid dog or not? It's mostly the females that it's hard to get info on. Like they say all good bitches belong in the whelping room. Well then how do you know she's good by looking at paper? I hope what I'm asking makes sense. Thanks in advance.

 

[wolfstraum]

look up females and see what they have produced and who their siblings are....

you will start to see relationships....

You can also try to find what progeny/siblings/sibling progeny are doing "real work" - SAR, LE

but you can also be fooled when a female is in a club, owned by a trainer and the majority of her progeny are in the club and titled...but cannot go off the home field and pass a trial! LOL LOL

Then there are those females who have only 1 or 2 litters, but produced well, and progeny are producing well....

Paper only the start.

I also look at "nicks" - crosses that get repeated and seem to be sucessful - one I liked was Brix Kapfwald and Troll....another Fero and Xento Maineiche (B litter[Boris and Babsi] Salztalblick and Aly Vordersteinwald)...

Lee

 

[mycobraracr]

Good idea! Thanks Lee

 

[mycobraracr]

In the last 6 or so WL pedigrees I looked at I saw Uwe vom Kirschental. Now Kirschental is/was a WGSL breeder correct? Is this before the split?

 

[cliffson1]

Yes, Uwe would be considered a working pedigree.

 

[carmspack]

Uwe Kirschental and his brother Uran are working line dogs which hold important genetics to herding lines .

The modern or contemporary "kirschental" lines are not the same , under a different persons direction .

Here is a herding kennel back in the day , also based in practical real herding lines and genetics , that made good use of the herding genetics on Uwe's maternal line.
That , since you want to be a breeder , is something to pay close attention to , the maternal line !
The breeder that I was referring to is haus Knufken.
Here is a male that I bred to - Tarbes haus Knufken . Tarbes vom Haus Knüfken This is such a beautifully planned breeding . When I bred to Tarbes , I believe it was his last litter , and he was the last or one of the last living progeny of Uwe Kirschental.
This breeding continues in my program to this day.

So you were asking about why are there not dogs better than the "great" well known stud - fill in the names -- and the answer would be that nature and genetics are complicated and what you get that are improvements are not necessarily seen by title. It may be something like more resilience, longevity, better hip grades, fertility, maternal behaviour, mental endurance , biddability .
You don't necessarily want to become your sire or dam and stay in place , you want additive qualities .

many of the males created family lines that we rely on

 

[mycobraracr]

Wow! Thank you for all the information. I have so much to learn. :headbang:

 

[Ocean]

Mycobraracr, I hope you don't mind if I take your thread to a somewhat different but related direction (as most threads in the GSD forum seem to do anyway

Why do I see so few repeat litters from American breeders (WL and GSL)?
I look at the web sites of some of the most reputable breeders and you see just about constant experimentation going on.
I know in the business world, R & D is important, but at some point you need to go into production.
Does that mean most of the experiments are failures?
If it's a good litter, why not repeat it over and over?
Or is it the "tinkering" aspect of breeding that attracts most people?

 

[mycobraracr]

Mycobraracr, I hope you don't mind if I take your thread to a somewhat different but related direction (as most threads in the GSD forum seem to do anyway

Why do I see so few repeat litters from American breeders (WL and GSL)?
I look at the web sites of some of the most reputable breeders and you see just about constant experimentation going on.
I know in the business world, R & D is important, but at some point you need to go into production.
Does that mean most of the experiments are failures?
If it's a good litter, why not repeat it over and over?
Or is it the "tinkering" aspect of breeding that attracts most people?

I don't mind at all.

I just had this conversation yesterday with a breeder I respect. She is a WL breeder and does a lot of repeat breeding's. She's one of the only ones I know of that does. She told me it's so you have consistency in the breeding program. You know what you're going to produce in a repeat breeding. Makes sense but... She also in every "new" breeding holds back a puppy to raise and see how they turn out. She said you can't trust how someone is going to raise a dog to accurately see how they turned out. If she likes it then it may happen again, if not then she will pair differently and if still doesn't like it then she doesn't breed the male/female again. She produces some really nice dogs so...

 

[carmspack]

look at this for repeat breedings Bernd Lierberg VA 3 Bernd vom Lierberg

repeat D - Dolf Lierberg V, BEL. SGR Dolf vom Lierberg

repeat F -- Fello Lierberg Fello vom Lierberg

repeat G - Gin Lierberg V Gin vom Lierberg

 

[lhczth]

I don't breed very often and keep few dogs, so I tend to use different males so that every female I keep is not 100% of the same lines. I also tend to use older males so repeats prove to be impossible. I would have liked to have done a repeat of my B litter (Belschik X Nike), but I got what I wanted in Vala and to do a repeat I would have had to use frozen semen. The latter was cost prohibitive for me.

 

[lhczth]

As far as the original question, Lee is correct, look to the females. You might see the same "big" names in the males, but it is who they are bred to that often makes the differences in the litters.

 

[BritneyP]

look up females and see what they have produced and who their siblings are....

you will start to see relationships....

You can also try to find what progeny/siblings/sibling progeny are doing "real work" - SAR, LE

but you can also be fooled when a female is in a club, owned by a trainer and the majority of her progeny are in the club and titled...but cannot go off the home field and pass a trial! LOL LOL

Then there are those females who have only 1 or 2 litters, but produced well, and progeny are producing well....

Paper only the start.

I also look at "nicks" - crosses that get repeated and seem to be sucessful - one I liked was Brix Kapfwald and Troll....another Fero and Xento Maineiche (B litter[Boris and Babsi] Salztalblick and Aly Vordersteinwald)...

Lee

Excellent post!