German Shepherds Forum banner

1 - 20 of 102 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,226 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I hear people all the time disagreeing at what the breed has become and disapproving of most other breeders and owners, which begs the question: why was there never a registry or "club" created like the one created to purchase a new Ferrari?
Not just anyone can waltz into a dealership and throw down some money and order one of those, and that's just a car (sorry if that hurts some Ferrari owners ;)) so I'm left wondering how come there was so much effort put into the standard, the tests, the registry, etc, but just anyone has been free this whole time to do as they please with them? (by that I mean branch off into show lines, sport, etc, not strictly "working")
I understand there is a registry in place which won't register puppies of untitled dogs, but Max clearly stated "Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog for I have struggled all my life for that aim!"... so why not create a main line of identifyable "working dogs" which would be the main source for breeding and allow fanciers to work off of those as they please but keep a "pure" or "registered" line going to derive from?
When one says they own a Ferrari, you know they mean business, but when one tells you they own a German Shepherd, they could mean anything, really.
 

·
"I like Daffy" Moderator
Joined
·
3,276 Posts
Wayne can probably give you more info, but there is a movement in Germany to do just that -- strictly promote the "working line" of GSD's. I believe it is called RS2000 or something like that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31,874 Posts
I hear people all the time disagreeing at what the breed has become and disapproving of most other breeders and owners, which begs the question: why was there never a registry or "club" created like the one created to purchase a new Ferrari?
Not just anyone can waltz into a dealership and throw down some money and order one of those, and that's just a car (sorry if that hurts some Ferrari owners ;)) so I'm left wondering how come there was so much effort put into the standard, the tests, the registry, etc, but just anyone has been free this whole time to do as they please with them? (by that I mean branch off into show lines, sport, etc, not strictly "working")
I understand there is a registry in place which won't register puppies of untitled dogs, but Max clearly stated "Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog for I have struggled all my life for that aim!"... so why not create a main line of identifyable "working dogs" which would be the main source for breeding and allow fanciers to work off of those as they please but keep a "pure" or "registered" line going to derive from?
When one says they own a Ferrari, you know they mean business, but when one tells you they own a German Shepherd, they could mean anything, really.
Those who have working line dogs, feel that show dogs should be working line dogs, because they are more correct in their opinion than the show line dogs. They believe that the show dog does not have the proper temperament and is not the desirable type for a working dog.

The showline dogs think their dogs have correct conformation and temperament for the breed. They think the working line dogs are hyper idiots and not what Max ever intended the breed to become. Their dogs HAVE been used as war dogs, and police dogs, and SAR dogs, and Cadaver dogs, and increasing the demands on a working dog to the extent that the dogs produced do not have the same character does not make those dogs more correct.

So it depends where you are coming from. This site has a LOT of working line people, and they want it all, they want the pretty dog contests too. I think that there is room in the world for the different types of GSDs. And if you all make up conformation shows where the working line dogs win, in a number of decades, two, three maybe, you all will be having this conversation again amongst yourselves, because some will be wanting to win win win on the conformation end, and some will be putting the majority of their effort developing temperament/utility and the lines will draw apart again. One specific line of dogs will become prominent in the conformation area and bred to exclusively for that purpose, and another chasm will build.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,452 Posts
I wonder if there ever was a time when the conformation dog WAS a superior working dog, and if it ever was, what is different about then and now???:confused:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
573 Posts
IMO, follow the money. The big industry cash is behind the whole show circuit, and that has spawned an industry (including breeding to that standard, different from what Max intended) to support it. WL just does not have the financial resources to compete, at least in the US.

It is a dang shame. I have a Fritz von Farbenspiel granddaughter that I was told could work. WL/SL cross. You almost have to beg her to get off the ottoman to get a drink. She has skin problems, and is the laziest dog I've ever seen. I worked her for about 6 months in Schutzhund with 2 national level helpers before a new business venture took me out of the country for a while. She was going nowhere. Home field advantage with her helper for a Sch1? Not a chance. My WL male has been dominating her since the day he came home. She was almost 3 at that point.

I took my male to a small local pet store where I buy some things because the owner wanted to meet him. The first words out of her mouth were, "Oh my God, he's beautiful! THAT is how a GSD SHOULD look!". She went on to tell me her experiences in the show ring for years (with yorkies) and how she thought some of the GSDs in the ring did not look physically capable of working.

I realize there are SL people here that will angrily disagree, that is why I opened my message with "IMO".
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,742 Posts
As a working line "peep", I have zero interest in "pretty dog contests". Wait, less than zero.
I do have an interest... but not that interest, while the breed remains the same, what the show people do, affects all. Personally, I do not feel offended if people doesn't recognize my dog as the same breed than the west german showlines they are used to see.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
573 Posts
You are correct, Catu. What I meant was to have my dog judged in that venue. I am not offended when people tell me my GSD looks like a wolf, and don't mind explaining either.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
21,368 Posts
the breed has become what humans have made it:(
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,226 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Setting aside for a moment all arguments about who could or could not be less interested in the line that they don't own, why not just create an exclusive "pure" line which cannot be adulterated by "unqualified", propogators?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,505 Posts
There is fredom in dog breeding in many countries. In others there is more control of criteria, but allow monetary and other influences and you get a view askew.

The only route I see is for registry to have established criteria that must be met for registration....there are dog breeds who have independant registries like that. Oh wait, I think it has been tried with GSDs already. Not sure there is an answer to it, the horse is out of the barn door.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
5,219 Posts
I hear people all the time disagreeing at what the breed has become and disapproving of most other breeders and owners, which begs the question: why was there never a registry or "club" created like the one created to purchase a new Ferrari?
Not just anyone can waltz into a dealership and throw down some money and order one of those, and that's just a car (sorry if that hurts some Ferrari owners ;)) so I'm left wondering how come there was so much effort put into the standard, the tests, the registry, etc, but just anyone has been free this whole time to do as they please with them? (by that I mean branch off into show lines, sport, etc, not strictly "working")
I understand there is a registry in place which won't register puppies of untitled dogs, but Max clearly stated "Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog for I have struggled all my life for that aim!"... so why not create a main line of identifyable "working dogs" which would be the main source for breeding and allow fanciers to work off of those as they please but keep a "pure" or "registered" line going to derive from?
When one says they own a Ferrari, you know they mean business, but when one tells you they own a German Shepherd, they could mean anything, really.
:headbang::headbang::headbang::headbang::headbang::headbang:




To beg the question does not mean "to raise the question." (e.g. "It begs the question, why is he so dumb?") This is a common error of usage made by those who mistake the word "question" in the phrase to refer to a literal question. Sadly, the error has grown more and more common with time, such that even journalists, advertisers, and major mass media entities have fallen prey to "BTQ Abuse."

While descriptivists and other such laissez-faire linguists are content to allow the misconception to fall into the vernacular, it cannot be denied that logic and philosophy stand to lose an important conceptual label should the meaning of BTQ become diluted to the point that we must constantly distinguish between the traditional usage and the erroneous "modern" usage.
"Begging the question" is a form of logical fallacy in which a statement or claim is assumed to be true without evidence other than the statement or claim itself. When one begs the question, the initial assumption of a statement is treated as already proven without any logic to show why the statement is true in the first place.

A simple example would be "I think he is unattractive because he is ugly." The adjective "ugly" does not explain why the subject is "unattractive" -- they virtually amount to the same subjective meaning, and the proof is merely a restatement of the premise. The sentence has begged the question.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
143 Posts
I don't contribute much on here because I don't have the experience. I do get on often to read the posts, however, to learn as much as I can.

As an objective observer (I'm not attached to any of the lines) I have noticed on this forum the bashing is generally one sided. Some (not all, a select few and anyone on here often enough can name them) of the WL folks bash the SL every opportunity they get. Yet I don't see the SL bashing the WL. I think it is sad people have to go down that path (bashing). People have preferences and there is nothing wrong with liking what one likes but it shouldn't be at the expense of bashing what someone else likes. It actually makes the 'basher' appear to be jealous. It's easy to lose respect for the bad mouthers.

Some people want drive, some don't. Some people want to work their dogs, some want to show and my guess is the higher % of people just want pets. Why can't people respect choices that are different from their own?
What am I thinking of course this drills down to a dog level. IT's in politics, race, religion, it's the reason we have war. Oops getting too philosophical....back to the dogs!

WL, SL, AL, I think they are all beautiful.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
573 Posts
Setting aside for a moment all arguments about who could or could not be less interested in the line that they don't own, why not just create an exclusive "pure" line which cannot be adulterated by "unqualified", propogators?
That is the problem. WHO is qualified, Whose opinion is the important one?

What is pure? How is the breed perpetuated while remaining pure? How is genetic diversity introduced?

I understand what you are saying but it sounds like you are asking for someone to be appointed to be the GSD God. I don't think it's possible. I don't think the SL people are bothered much by the WL dogs, and WL people are usually too busy training to worry about what the SL people think.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,742 Posts
Some people want drive, some don't. Some people want to work their dogs, some want to show and my guess is the higher % of people just want pets. Why can't people respect choices that are different from their own?
What am I thinking of course this drills down to a dog level. IT's in politics, race, religion, it's the reason we have war. Oops getting too philosophical....back to the dogs!

WL, SL, AL, I think they are all beautiful.
Because this is a discussion based on breeding, and the breed was not designed to be "just" a pet, that doesn't mean they can't be pets and (so nobody feels offended) sought and bought to be only pets. But breeding IS a different matter if someone wants to keep seeing our breed working on as different venues as you, still, can see today.

Forums are made by people, and as in any kind of organization, deliberated or not it ends up having a given "culture". I agree this board weighs more towards the working line GSD, or at least some subforums do. I see nothing wrong with that. There are dozen of GSD and all breed dogs boards out there and you are free to go where you feel more comfortable. I like this one because there is a good level of discussion when it comes to working matters, there are others that are much more oriented to Show, whose I don't visit and some that are much more on the pet side, that I visit but don't post that often and others that are only about working, just in the same way than when you chose a bar, where in every one you can have a good drink, but in some the music is more of your liking than in others and you are free to prefer that one.So far I do not know of any Internet board as massive as this, but I don't think you can have a more "everybody happy" than this one. Who knows, maybe in ten more years the trend will be towards others lines or venues, who knows, a board is only the people that post in them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31,874 Posts
That is the problem. WHO is qualified, Whose opinion is the important one?

What is pure? How is the breed perpetuated while remaining pure? How is genetic diversity introduced?

I understand what you are saying but it sounds like you are asking for someone to be appointed to be the GSD God. I don't think it's possible. I don't think the SL people are bothered much by the WL dogs, and WL people are usually too busy training to worry about what the SL people think.
I think this is very true.

It just gets old when some less informed people go on and on and on and on and on about how crappy, crippled, nervy the showline dogs are. Showline people, who have some very nice dogs, get P-O'd and think these people are speaking from a working line background (when they could actually be coming from a pet/mixed line background, common all over), and they take jabs at the working lines, they are hyper idiots, I do not have to work my dogs 2 hours a day just for them to be sane and manageable. The working line people, who have heard enough about high drive dogs, no off-switch, not good as a family dog, etc., are quick to come back and defend their dogs.

And it becomes a vicious circle. Because we ALL think that our lines are the best lines, else we would stay quiet and vow that next dog will be out of other lines.

ETA: show line people are busy training and showing their dogs too.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
143 Posts
There are dozen of GSD and all breed dogs boards out there and you are free to go where you feel more comfortable.

I didn't mean to imply I have issue with this board or any discussions. I enjoy reading posts on all the lines, the WL folks promoting what they love about their preference, the SL folks promoting what they love about theirs, etc. It's the negative speak that gets old. And yes I get forums are a microcosm of the real world and there will always be negative people.

I absolutely want to hear what people love about their line what I don't want to hear is what they hate about the 'other line'...aka 'bad line'. I have found that those are the people that I don't bother reading their post because it isn't constructive.

What I do know is there is no perfect dog so all the lines have good and bad and the constructive criticism seems to come from the owners/proponents of said line. It seems to be less constructive and more bashing when it comes from owner/proponents of the 'opposing' line.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31,874 Posts
Because this is a discussion based on breeding, and the breed was not designed to be "just" a pet, that doesn't mean they can't be pets and (so nobody feels offended) sought and bought to be only pets. But breeding IS a different matter if someone wants to keep seeing our breed working on as different venues as you, still, can see today.

Forums are made by people, and as in any kind of organization, deliberated or not it ends up having a given "culture". I agree this board weighs more towards the working line GSD, or at least some subforums do. I see nothing wrong with that. There are dozen of GSD and all breed dogs boards out there and you are free to go where you feel more comfortable. I like this one because there is a good level of discussion when it comes to working matters, there are others that are much more oriented to Show, whose I don't visit and some that are much more on the pet side, that I visit but don't post that often and others that are only about working, just in the same way than when you chose a bar, where in every one you can have a good drink, but in some the music is more of your liking than in others and you are free to prefer that one.So far I do not know of any Internet board as massive as this, but I don't think you can have a more "everybody happy" than this one. Who knows, maybe in ten more years the trend will be towards others lines or venues, who knows, a board is only the people that post in them.
So are you saying that if you don't like the working line feel to this forum, go find another forum to post in?

I am a member of two or three other forums, one I go on now and then, the others, I am just not on. This was my first forum, and I have been here for years. I think that pet people, and show line people, and working line people have a lot of things in common.

I think the bashing between the lines is simply stupid and unhelpful.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
37 Posts
It actually makes the 'basher' appear to be jealous. It's easy to lose respect for the bad mouthers.
As a working line "peep", I have zero interest in "pretty dog contests". Wait, less than zero.
You mean like this guy! :laugh:

I have had gsd's for 40+ years, every line out there. I have my prefrence but I certainly do not go around bashing the other lines. They are still gsd's and all the lines are noble in their own rights.

Some people have to try and knock others down to feel better about themselves. Ignore them and stay positive. You've got the right attitude lovethebreed.
 
1 - 20 of 102 Posts
Top