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Do you train with treats?

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No treats.

I use voice and physical touch and will end the lesson with a game of tug.

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Perfect.

Might splash in treats at the very END, but not ongoing.
 

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We use voice, affection/pets as a reward and hand gestures with voice until she can get down to just the hand gestures to do what we ask w.o saying a word. Have trained many dogs this way and plus side is we do not have to break them of a constant treat after doing what is asked of them.
That's where I ended up too. In a public situation I won't always have a treat pouch with me. If I need my dog to reliably react, by hand signal/voice command, I feel like treat free is the way to go.
 

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Fade from food to a toy. You belief that she was training you has no basis in reality. If you are satisfied with lackadaisical obedience, keep doing what you are doing.
 

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If your dog has no interest in treats you are probably using treats that are low value to your dog and feeding her too much. There is a genetic component to food drive as well.
 

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Fade from food to a toy. You belief that she was training you has no basis in reality. If you are satisfied with lackadaisical obedience, keep doing what you are doing.
Not satisfied with lackadaisical obedience at all, I wanted to use treats as markers but she demonstrated no interest. It was her trainer who told me to try and use a toy with praise and touch, to which she responded to.

If your dog has no interest in treats you are probably using treats that are low value to your dog and feeding her too much. There is a genetic component to food drive as well.
I have tried liver, hot dogs, tuna fudge, cheese etc but she seems not to be driven by food, she is the only dog that I have owned where food seems of no interest to her, she will eat her meal but that is it.

I feed her less than most because she has HD and I want to keep her lean, she gets around 24oz of food per day.

Do you think I should feed her less to build up her food drive and what would you suggest as a high value treat?
 

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I train with a variety of things. I will use whatever motivates the dog ultimately. Some things are easier to teach with treats, some with toys, some with leash pressure, ect. This idea that dogs trained with treats won't work when you don't have them is ridiculous. If your dog only obeys when the reward is presented, then your dog isn't fully trained. I live in downtown. I go on hikes and other things with my dogs. I train my dogs for IGP as well. Whether I have a reward or not, my dogs obey the commands given.
 

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If your dog is motivated by a toy that is fine. What you do you use and how do you use it? Some dogs just have very low food drive. The advantage of food in foundation training is that you can reinforce with food at a very high rate of reinforcement and do better luring.
 

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Fade from food to a toy. You belief that she was training you has no basis in reality. If you are satisfied with lackadaisical obedience, keep doing what you are doing.
Ha Ha, here ya go again 😄 Thought we were gravitating towards civility? She's no longer dependent on food or toy, never required a clicker, and ultimately progressed better. That's the only reality that matters. It's a pretty broad brush stroke to surmise that a given dog is lackadaisical, especially when that dog has not been observed first hand.
 

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I train with a variety of things. I will use whatever motivates the dog ultimately. Some things are easier to teach with treats, some with toys, some with leash pressure, ect. This idea that dogs trained with treats won't work when you don't have them is ridiculous. If your dog only obeys when the reward is presented, then your dog isn't fully trained. I live in downtown. I go on hikes and other things with my dogs. I train my dogs for IGP as well. Whether I have a reward or not, my dogs obey the commands given.
I'm not saying 'all dogs', or 'a dog' or even 'my dog' won't work when treats are withheld. I'm just stating my preference, and what works for me. If that makes me ridiculous, wouldn't it also make every combat dog handler that moved thru an operation with his dog, and DIDN'T stop to reinforce with a chewy snack also ridiculous? I'm not ridiculing the use of any training aid - just stating my preference, for the purpose I use my dog. In conformation or working trials, maybe life is very different so I defer to all you sports people on that.
 

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You said there was a staggering difference in response time when treats were used and when they were not.
Yes sir, she was 4 mos old at that point. She's 26 mos old now and very different. I guess I could have included the fact that her maturity also factored into her development, but I fear I might even be marooned on a thought island with that notion too. No harm - no foul. There are things that motivate her to move quicker, I don't dispute that, but I have seen lots of working trials videos where dogs move no better, often slower than mine. And I don't regard those videos as wholly definitive. Dogs are not machines. Environment, experience, health and fatigue probably factor into a dog's response on a given exercise.
 

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I'm not saying 'all dogs', or 'a dog' or even 'my dog' won't work when treats are withheld. I'm just stating my preference, and what works for me. If that makes me ridiculous, wouldn't it also make every combat dog handler that moved thru an operation with his dog and DIDN'T stop to reinforce with a chewy snack also ridiculous? I'm not ridiculing the use of any training aid - just stating my preference.
You're not getting it. A finished dog does not need a reward or reinforcement to perform. If I am on the street, and I tell my dog to sit, he sits. There is no reinforcement. The dog simply obeys the command. You are stuck on this idea that you use treats to train, you will always need them. That is wrong. Your preference isn't what I find ridiculous. Its the premise you based it on. Tell me this, how are detection dogs trained. What is the reward? How are patrol dogs trained? What is the reward. In my experience, the smell detection dogs are trained to look for is associated with their favorite toy, usually a ball. When the dogs are looking for that smell, they are really searching for their ball. When they make a find, they are rewarded with a ball. This how police detection dogs I know of work. I can't tell you how combat ones go exactly, but there is some one who can. I watched David's videos on scent work with Valor, and he started off with associated the reward(food) with the scents. As for patrol or protection dogs in general, the bite is usually the reward. I'm no expert, and I'm more than open to hear your experiences with working dogs. You talked about wanting to do SAR, what does the group or person you looked at reward their dogs with.
 

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Rionel slow down a little!:)You're taking bits from posts that are responses to other members and taking them as personal criticism of yourself.That's not what's happening. Trading thoughts and philosophies is all that's going on.
 
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Rionel slow down a little!:)You're taking bits from posts that are responses to other members and taking them as personal criticism of yourself.That's not what's happening. Trading thoughts and philosophies is all that's going on.
I see. I'm not offended at anyone. Mr. Blasiole quoted me directly. That seems something I should be allowed to address.
 

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You're not getting it. A finished dog does not need a reward or reinforcement to perform. If I am on the street, and I tell my dog to sit, he sits. There is no reinforcement. The dog simply obeys the command. You are stuck on this idea that you use treats to train, you will always need them. That is wrong. Your preference isn't what I find ridiculous. Its the premise you based it on. Tell me this, how are detection dogs trained. What is the reward? How are patrol dogs trained? What is the reward. In my experience, the smell detection dogs are trained to look for is associated with their favorite toy, usually a ball. When the dogs are looking for that smell, they are really searching for their ball. When they make a find, they are rewarded with a ball. This how police detection dogs I know of work. I can't tell you how combat ones go exactly, but there is some one who can. I watched David's videos on scent work with Valor, and he started off with associated the reward(food) with the scents. As for patrol or protection dogs in general, the bite is usually the reward. I'm no expert, and I'm more than open to hear your experiences with working dogs. You talked about wanting to do SAR, what does the group or person you looked at reward their dogs with.
Bearshandler, I think we're talking past one another. I agree with much of what you state above, except I think you are ascribing too much weight to my intended first post on this thread. As far as SAR, I am friends with a leading SAR handler who utilizes Malinois and Border Collies. She does mostly cadaver work because her top BC ended up with drug injury (nasal impairment) although it doesn't seem permanent. She also goes out on search for missing people and travels well outside of Indiana. So that's a bit of the hold up in the past, because of my business obligations, and the need to be accessible for SAR. I've owned working dog breeds for decades, so much of my interest is on breed health and sustainability. The concern I have is that even in a rudimentary discussion of dog snacks, so many hackles stand up and AGAIN the moderator addresses me. I was told I am 'ridiculous', my dog is 'lackadaisical', and my belief is not 'based in reality'. How that means I need to slow down is paradoxical to me. Sorry I offended so many by mentioning 'MY DOG' is no longer trained with treats. Have a nice day everyone.
 

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Rionel the posts you refer to were'nt addressing you.Please re read them!The lackadaisical comment was a general comment, not about your dog. Nobody said you were ridiculous! Bearshandler thought a general concept ( not you!) seemed ridiculous TO HIM.You are somehow misinterpreting some things.People here are interested in your thoughts.
 

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Rionel the posts you refer to were'nt addressing you.Please re read them!The lackadaisical comment was a general comment, not about your dog. Nobody said you were ridiculous! Bearshandler thought a general concept ( not you!) seemed ridiculous TO HIM.You are somehow misinterpreting some things.People here are interested in your thoughts.
I appreciate your offering that but respectfully can't agree. But maybe we can both agree that snacks/treats/methods aren't worth falling on one's sword. If there is one take away I have, it is that nobody is actually interested in my thoughts. And that's OK. Critical reading of the above replies, in their context, shows veiled insults. Even the commenter after your comment cites "The beauty of print..." as if the text only supports the notion that I am gleaning anything other than the intended slurs. The appropriate thing to cite is the Beauty of Comprehension. Again, I am not upset with the commenters, only disappointed in their attempts to create silly disagreement. I was temporarily banned after being ambushed by commenters. I returned to further ambush by commenters. I think I'll keep my circle of enthusiasts, breeders and trainers to in-person discussions. Facts matter. Have a nice day, Terri.
 

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I use food early on with a puppy to teach the basics. My older dog is still food motivated. My other dog isn’t. He will leave a bowl of food to follow me if he thinks I’m doing something fun. He is toy obsessed, though, so I switched to toys early on when I needed reinforcement. Frisbees, tugs. I agree that food is faster and easier. It’s a better lure because you can cover it in your hand and the dog still knows where it is. A toy is easier to grab if they want to, though. So that is something that must be dealt with when starting out.
 
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