[Jen84]

I just got a question regarding hunt drive and not specific to video. So, if I'm out of line here @Bearshandler just let me know; I just didn't want to start a new thread.

Here is what @David Winners mentioned in another thread, regarding hunt drive, and was hoping someone could expand on it a bit:

"Valor is just 8 months. He's looking like he would be a fantastic MIL/LE dog. Loads of confidence. His hunt drive is extreme (12 minutes running hard on a search with no handler intervention). Great handler focus. Very forward when suspicious." - David Winners

Someone told me that their dog wouldn't quit looking for stick when it was thrown and got stuck in a tree. A couple hours later, he had to physically go and get the dog ?

He called this German Shepherd a 10+ on a scale of 0 - 10 for hunt drive.

 

[berno von der seeweise]

missing tail makes me think he's a rott cross and they docked him in the whelpingbox

I'm talking about working dogs and not sport dogs here.

again, rudimentarily speaking, I think there's quite a bit of overlap between the two. I'm certainly not suggesting lackland deploy "sportdogs" to syria, I'm only saying the avg schH 1 is more than enough "protection dog" for most owners.

furthermore I'm not trying to convince anyone else that I'm "right" about any of this. I'm just trying to explain why I think and say all the "wrong" things that I so often do around here.

top tier gsd folk look at that and see weak dogs, but I look at that and see more than enough dog for me personally

 

[David Winners]

I just got a question regarding hunt drive and not specific to video. So, if I'm out of line here @Bearshandler just let me know; I just didn't want to start a new thread.

Here is what @David Winners mentioned in another thread, regarding hunt drive, and was hoping someone could expand on it a bit:

"Valor is just 8 months. He's looking like he would be a fantastic MIL/LE dog. Loads of confidence. His hunt drive is extreme (12 minutes running hard on a search with no handler intervention). Great handler focus. Very forward when suspicious." - David Winners

Someone told me that their dog wouldn't quit looking for stick when it was thrown and got stuck in a tree. A couple hours later, he had to physically go and get the dog ?

He called this German Shepherd a 10+ on a scale of 0 - 10 for hunt drive.

That is impressive in some ways.
Will the same dog actively search for that same amount of time?

I got a bumper stuck in a tree. Valor spotted it, jumped up on a picnic table and would not leave it. I didn't try a formal recall because I wasn't sure he would comply. I had to leash him and walk away.

What I want to see for detection is active searching that is rewarding to the dog that has duration limited by the physical condition of the dog, not attention span. If the dog in the example will search until it can't close its mouth to sniff, I'll take him in a heartbeat.

 

[David Winners]

missing tail makes me think he's a rott cross and they docked him in the whelpingbox




again, rudimentarily speaking, I think there's quite a bit of overlap between the two. I'm certainly not suggesting lackland deploy "sportdogs" to syria, I'm only saying the avg schH 1 is more than enough "protection dog" for most owners.

furthermore I'm not trying to convince anyone else that I'm "right" about any of this. I'm just trying to explain why I think and say all the "wrong" things that I so often do around here.

top tier gsd folk look at that and see weak dogs, but I look at that and see more than enough dog for me personally

Nothing in that video resembles protection. The dogs look away from the decoy to the handler all the time. If that is more than enough, any dog with a modicum of prey drive will suffice.

 

[Jen84]

That is impressive in some ways.
Will the same dog actively search for that same amount of time?

I got a bumper stuck in a tree. Valor spotted it, jumped up on a picnic table and would not leave it. I didn't try a formal recall because I wasn't sure he would comply. I had to leash him and walk away.

What I want to see for detection is active searching that is rewarding to the dog that has duration limited by the physical condition of the dog, not attention span. If the dog in the example will search until it can't close its mouth to sniff, I'll take him in a heartbeat.

Well, it might have been BS too. I'm not sure. I don't know him personally other than online.

I guess what had me curious about your quote was that you said, "(12 minutes running hard on a search with no handler intervention)".

Is this a good test to determine "hunt drive". I mean I know you know your dog and have seen a ton of other dogs to compare to. When you say 12 minutes is extreme hunt, meaning 10+, how does nine or ten minutes fall into that scale ?

 

[Jen84]

What I want to see for detection is active searching that is rewarding to the dog that has duration limited by the physical condition of the dog, not attention span. If the dog in the example will search until it can't close its mouth to sniff, I'll take him in a heartbeat.

I should have started another thread. Sorry @Bearshandler

When I said 9 - 10 minutes, in my last post, that is an out of shape dog coming out of winter lol

I could post a video of what I'm talking about. Just tell me to start a new thread or post here?

 

[David Winners]

12 minutes searching full blast for a puppy is substantial. 12 minutes is far longer than most police dogs spend on a detection search. Many on leash detection dogs need regular handler direction after a search goes on beyond their attention span (a few minutes).

Respiration rate increases dramatically (200 bpm) when sniffing, so the dog loses oxygenation during a search. This also causes discomfort. The combination of drive, conditioning and training comes together to build duration in searches. If one of those requirements is missing, the ability to search is lessened.

Top tier military bomb dogs will search for much longer, but that is built up over years. Fama, at 4 years old, would actively search 6 miles or so without a break. They also learn to relax and settle into a search through experience.

To address your specific question, in a puppy, I want to see 5+ minutes of searching without coming back for help. This can be greatly effected by what kind of activity the dog has endured before the test and the conditioning of the dog.

I think many people would be surprised at how quickly a dog will stop actually searching with its nose because of fatigue.

 

[Jen84]

12 minutes searching full blast for a puppy is substantial. 12 minutes is far longer than most police dogs spend on a detection search. Many on leash detection dogs need regular handler direction after a search goes on beyond their attention span (a few minutes).

Respiration rate increases dramatically (200 bpm) when sniffing, so the dog loses oxygenation during a search. This also causes discomfort. The combination of drive, conditioning and training comes together to build duration in searches. If one of those requirements is missing, the ability to search is lessened.

Top tier military bomb dogs will search for much longer, but that is built up over years. Fama, at 4 years old, would actively search 6 miles or so without a break. They also learn to relax and settle into a search through experience.

To address your specific question, in a puppy, I want to see 5+ minutes of searching without coming back for help. This can be greatly effected by what kind of activity the dog has endured before the test and the conditioning of the dog.

I think many people would be surprised at how quickly a dog will stop actually searching with its nose because of fatigue.

Thank you for this. It makes sense that the condition of the dog plays a role as well.

If I'm not mistaken, someone experienced said that high hunt brings strong defense as well (?)

I think I'll post a couple of videos in a new thread so I don't completely derail this thread. If you feel like commenting on the videos and have time, at some point, it would be appreciated.

 

[David Winners]

Thank you for this. It makes sense that the condition of the dog plays a role as well.

If I'm not mistaken, someone experienced said that high hunt brings strong defense as well (?)

I think I'll post a couple of videos in a new thread so I don't completely derail this thread. If you feel like commenting on the videos and have time, at some point, it would be appreciated.

I have never noted any correlation between hunt drive and defense.

The very best detection dog I have ever seen was a super sweet black lab.

 

[Sabis mom]

I wouldn’t put to much stock in how the guy is dressed here. He’s wearing an apron which some people use as protection when they are working on a sleeve. I’m sure the dog knows who this decoy is and what he’s here to do. The aggression here is more of a prey/play type than a dog looking to seriously hurt the decoy. I can’t say how social or sharp this dog is with people from this video. The pulling could be more of a training thing. I believe this dog was started at least in the same way a sport prospect would. There’s different situations I could see the need for sending a protection dog. If I was in a situation where someone had a gun and I thought an attack was imminent, I would send the dog if it was an option. If I came home and someone had broken in, I could see sending the dog. This dog is supposed to be a dual purpose working dog, so being sent could definitely be a part of the job. I don’t think pushing or pulling tells you all that much about a dog wanting to stay in the fight. I think you have to observe the whole picture.

Agree. I was just making observations based solely on the video.
The dog seems willing and eager, beyond that ...
It's different from what I want to see in a working dog. That could be training.

 

[berno von der seeweise]

Nothing in that video resembles protection.

you'll have to take that up with the french

If that is more than enough, any dog with a modicum of prey drive will suffice.

I tend to agree, but more to the point

Catch dog - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

as it relates to protection, or maybe as sport relates to livestock, or maybe just how I can see it's all inter-related. Little igor will grab a big aggressive runaway horned male by the collar, and dig his heels into the dirt in order to bring it to a stop without injuring it. I wouldn't even begin to know how to train that? It's just genetic. Instinct. So how many generations has it been since anybody in his tribe was even around livestock? and what kept those instincts alive?

I'm pretty sure we're looking at it with little andy right here

"applied herding"

I was just making observations based solely on the video.
The dog seems willing and eager, beyond that ...
It's different from what I want to see in a working dog. That could be training.

yeah, I wouldn't go so far as to import him either, but to me he looks serviceable enough

Dogs for sale - eliteslovakiank9.com

somebody reserved him. Good luck, andy!

 

[berno von der seeweise]

I annoy myself with the ring thing, so I’m sure it’s like fingernails on a chalkboard to the rest of the world. But some of those lines. The peds. I’m pretty sure there’s some population isolation going on over there. If you’re into malinois it’s worth a look.
While I’m at it here, like 99 of 100 ringvids are unwatchable because ringfolk have such horrible taste in music. The takeaway, some really quick dogs will be forgotten because nobody can even stand to look at them. So when editing vids of your dog for youtube, if you feel like you just must have musical accompaniment, please choose something totally non-offensive that’s already stood the test of time. Maybe a little vivaldi or whatever?

 

[Bearshandler]

Agree. I was just making observations based solely on the video.
The dog seems willing and eager, beyond that ...
It's different from what I want to see in a working dog. That could be training.

That was more so the point here, to talk about what’s in the video than the actual dog himself. I wanted it detached from the other details about the actual dog. I’ve seen his pedigree and based on the dogs he comes from, I would expect him to be a pretty serious dog when pushed. I think he can be a really good dog, just not quite the type I want.

 

[berno von der seeweise]

I see equipment association. I've set a good pup back oversmacking the bitearm/nose. Live and learn. Long sends. Sound sensitivity test. Outs aren't crisp and they don't want to discourage him. Cartop action wasn't terribly flattering. I like the shipping container/tires/recycling. Hidden sleeve looks good. Suit looks good. I see no reason to assume he wouldn't grab an unprotected arm. Whipstick made good contact. Is that striped hoodie jute or something? Looks like the beginnings of passive, bit of toe action. Multiple handlers, multiple decoys. Looks ok to me? I'm too novice to detect anything really wrong there.

educate me, please

 

[David Winners]

You see equipment association, yet you see no reason to assume he wouldn't grab an unprotected arm?

Yes, it is a terrible idea to hit a pup in the nose with a whip.

What is "toe action?"

There is a hidden sleeve under the hoodie. It's probably cotton.

What don't you like about the attack on top of the car?

 

[berno von der seeweise]

What don't you like about the attack on top of the car?

I do like it because criminals will often jump on top of vehicles in an attempt to avoid a dog

I have no interest whatsoever in attempting to impugn the integrity of this fine institution at large.

All I'm sayin' is, anytime you drop your bitearm below your knee, you may look as if you're feeding the sleeve. Overall I personally don't think this frame does the dog justice. The training scenario itself is sound enough, it just didn't play out as good as it might have THIS TIME, in front of the camera. Let's just call this a lesson in video editing.

@ 3:00 he looks to me like he'd grab. @ 4:30 little toe x gut. I don't mean to be mistrustful, but the striped sweatshirt strikes me as weird because they keep using it. It appears to be worn by multiple decoys. Are we sure that isn't like "french linen`" or something?

do you have any idea how difficult it is to even find a cotton hoodie anymore?

 

[David Winners]

None of this has anything to do with the dog.

 

[Bearshandler]

I do like it because criminals will often jump on top of vehicles in an attempt to avoid a dog

View attachment 571904
I have no interest whatsoever in attempting to impugn the integrity of this fine institution at large.

All I'm sayin' is, anytime you drop your bitearm below your knee, you may look as if you're feeding the sleeve. Overall I personally don't think this frame does the dog justice. The training scenario itself is sound enough, it just didn't play out as good as it might have THIS TIME, in front of the camera. Let's just call this a lesson in video editing.

@ 3:00 he looks to me like he'd grab. @ 4:30 little toe x gut. I don't mean to be mistrustful, but the striped sweatshirt strikes me as weird because they keep using it. It appears to be worn by multiple decoys. Are we sure that isn't like "french linen`" or something?

do you have any idea how difficult it is to even find a cotton hoodie anymore?

The lowering of the sleeve is probably a safety thing. If the dog is targeting the sleeve and it is held higher, it may lead to the dog launching, which wouldn’t be safe for the decoy or dog in this scenario. I wouldn’t think too much of the clothing.

 

[berno von der seeweise]

but if it was me, everybody'd be all "quit feeding the sleeve, berno!" and the training director would make me stay after to clean up again. I know how you guys operate....

 

[Bearshandler]

but if it was me, everybody'd be all "quit feeding the feeding the sleeve, berno!" and the training director would make me stay after and clean up again. I know how you guys operate....

Maybe. You never post videos though.