German Shepherds Forum banner
101 - 120 of 121 Posts

· Registered
Joined
·
301 Posts
You mean the positive approach where she WANTS to work? You mean the positive approach where she doesn't shut down from stress because I don't feel the need to dominate her? You mean the positive approach taught to me by someone whose titled dogs in obedience, the vice president of the local Schutzhund club and who has a high level degree in animal behavior? That approach? You've never seen anyone train their dogs without rolling them?

You apparently have way more time on your hands than I do. So feel free to post a video showing how YOU train.








yes,i'd really like to see how your methods work.I MEAN YOU ARE OVERLY CRITICAL OF MY POSTS AND THE METHODS I USE,so i wouldn't mind seeing your perspective.I'm not the one critising your methods,you are always critising mine.I figure since you have so much to say about all this in a negative manner then hey,maybe I Should see thse results that you speak so highly of.Seriously.as for time on my hands,i really do not have that much but try to use it wisely in an efficient manner.i already posted a video that 2 of you jumped on right away in a nasty manner,so the balls in your court.
 

· Super Moderator
Cava, floofy supermodel
Joined
·
20,575 Posts
:wub: Halo. She has so much personality.
She DOES - that's what makes the little snot so much fun, lol! She's totally in control, she instigates the play, and you can see she's trying her darndest to get him to chase her around the table. She only succeeds a couple of times, in spite of her best efforts.
 

· Moderator
Joined
·
5,633 Posts
i already posted a video that 2 of you jumped on right away in a nasty manner,so the balls in your court.
I'm sorry you felt that way. I don't believe that either one of us were nasty. I know that I certainly wasn't trying to be. Just wanted to share my observations in hopes that we could all learn about dog behavior together through productive discussion.
 

· Super Moderator
Cava, floofy supermodel
Joined
·
20,575 Posts
I wonder if part of the problem here is that some people don't know exactly what an alpha roll IS? Pack members rolling around together is play, they're not trying to dominate each other. Hence, by definition, that's not an alpha roll, even if one of them ends up rolled under the other because there's no intent to dominate or be "alpha", they're just having fun.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
301 Posts
Baloney. Play between dogs in the same home who are part of the same pack and who get along well don't tend to have rigid rules like that. In our house it's very clear that Halo rules the roost - she's got Keefer, who is 3 years older and 20 pounds heavier, wrapped around her fuzzy little paw. But he humps her, she rolls onto her back in play, and not only does she allow him to stand over her she actually puts herself there by walking underneath him and sitting down, and diving under his belly to bite at his legs. But she's still the boss. :D
Thats why i said the true dominant dog.I believe that in a well run household with obiedient dogs they see you as the true dominant one or pack boss.If it were a pack of wild dogs that would never happen.not wolves here but wild or feral dog pack.Acero is just a baby compareds to oso but she is the dominant one out of them.sigh.time to go out a finish forking out stalls and bottle feed some lambs.my toes have thawed enough to stop yacking on here.:laugh:
 

· Registered
Joined
·
301 Posts
I'm sorry you felt that way. I don't believe that either one of us were nasty. I know that I certainly wasn't trying to be. Just wanted to share my observations in hopes that we could all learn about dog behavior together through productive discussion.
thanks for that.but since jax08 post about my BS because of caps it seems that way with her anyways.but again thanks for the explanation.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
34,500 Posts
yes,i'd really like to see how your methods work.I MEAN YOU ARE OVERLY CRITICAL OF MY POSTS AND THE METHODS I USE,so i wouldn't mind seeing your perspective.I'm not the one critising your methods,you are always critising mine.I figure since you have so much to say about all this in a negative manner then hey,maybe I Should see thse results that you speak so highly of.Seriously.as for time on my hands,i really do not have that much but try to use it wisely in an efficient manner.i already posted a video that 2 of you jumped on right away in a nasty manner,so the balls in your court.
First, nobody was nasty about your video. All we said it looked like they were playing and we didn't see an alpha roll.

Second, just because we disagree with you does not mean you need to get nasty. Yes. It's you being nasty. Not us.

Third, why are you being so over emotional about a subject that obviously people are going to disagree about. Nobody was attacking you in any way, yet you've chosen to take it personally.

Fourth, I have a right to my opinion just as you do. My opinion is that I don't need to roll my dog to be the alpha. In two years of using dominant training methods I got nowhere. In three weeks of using positive methods, I had a dog healing like a champ. Get a grip. Calm down. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean we've hired a hit on you. There is more than one way to train. You stick you yours and I'll stick to mine.

Fifth, your video didn't show any kind of training. It showed a couple of dogs playing.

Last, oh yeah...this nonsense is why I was ignoring your posts to begin with. :wild:
 

· Super Moderator
Cava, floofy supermodel
Joined
·
20,575 Posts
Well, I don't think there are all that many "true dominant dogs". Much of the behavior that's attributed to dominance is grossly mislabeled, and is no such thing. Dominance theory is one of those myths that just won't die, and has unfortunately been resurrected by Cesar Milan to the point that many people think that every time their dog doesn't do something, it's willfully disobeying because it's trying to be top dog. And needs to be alpha rolled to show it who's boss. :rolleyes:

A dog that is truly dominant over other dogs probably wouldn't be safe left loose even around his own packmates, much less roll around on the ground with them in play.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
34,500 Posts
I wonder if part of the problem here is that some people don't know exactly what an alpha roll IS? Pack members rolling around together is play, they're not trying to dominate each other. Hence, by definition, that's not an alpha roll, even if one of them ends up rolled under the other because there's no intent to dominate or be "alpha", they're just having fun.
That is what I'm getting from this conversation. Words are tricky. What means something to me and you means something different to others.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
301 Posts
I wonder if part of the problem here is that some people don't know exactly what an alpha roll IS? Pack members rolling around together is play, they're not trying to dominate each other. Hence, by definition, that's not an alpha roll, even if one of them ends up rolled under the other because there's no intent to dominate or be "alpha", they're just having fun.
its subtle but its there.Acero is playing yes but at the same time she's giving off body signals that says 'I'm testing to see how far I can get while still being a pain in the ass" i know its not a full out scruff and roar your dead roll but she's learning as a puppy will.Oso has put his foot on her back when they were not playing and she swung around and snapped.I caught her look and I gave her the look to knock it off with a short "AT!!!!" and she backed off and settled down.I love to just watch them and their weird little traits.it helps alot to understand them more.
 

· Super Moderator
Cava, floofy supermodel
Joined
·
20,575 Posts
Did you read the article I posted?

Klinghammer notes that the preferred strategy of one wolf establishing dominance over another is
“usually a drawn-out series of encounters that eventually convinces a wolf to submit and run
away.” In fact, says Ken McCort, a dog training and behavior consultant, “with wolves the inguinal
presentation behavior is usually volunteered by a lower ranking wolf as sort of an appeasement to a
dominant animal in the face of some threat or altercation” ... and leaders in packs “control assets (posses-
sions, territory) more often than physically controlling individuals.”
When your dogs are playing is there a threat or an altercation? Or are they just having fun, and occasionally communicating that the other dog went to far or is about to, and should back off?

You accuse others of not being open minded enough to accept what you say, but have you entertained the thought that you might be wrong? That you're misinterpreting your dogs' behavior, or misusing terminology?
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1,027 Posts
I wonder if part of the problem here is that some people don't know exactly what an alpha roll IS? Pack members rolling around together is play, they're not trying to dominate each other. Hence, by definition, that's not an alpha roll, even if one of them ends up rolled under the other because there's no intent to dominate or be "alpha", they're just having fun.
Completely agree!! I think people are getting a little confused. When dogs play and roll each other on their backs (or as in the video posted earlier, one of the dogs will voluntarily take the submissive position for the other dog to get on top) is not the same as an owner pinning their dog to the ground until the dog submits. What we are talking about here is FORCIBLY putting a dog on his back in order to get some sort of "submission" out of him. I roll my dog over all the time, but its only for belly rubs. He plays with other dogs and they rotate around with one dog on his back and the other on top. That's NOT what we mean when we say "alpha rolling a dog".
 

· Registered
Joined
·
876 Posts
Well, I don't think there are all that many "true dominant dogs". Much of the behavior that's attributed to dominance is grossly mislabeled, and is no such thing. Dominance theory is one of those myths that just won't die, and has unfortunately been resurrected by Cesar Milan to the point that many people think that every time their dog doesn't do something, it's willfully disobeying because it's trying to be top dog. And needs to be alpha rolled to show it who's boss. :rolleyes:

A dog that is truly dominant over other dogs probably wouldn't be safe left loose even around his own packmates, much less roll around on the ground with them in play.
:groovy:

Just wanted to agree with this!

Isn't it funny, that the man who originally proposed "alpha" theory (David Mech), has since gone back and fully retracted his previous findings, citing that they were completely wrong?

And yet people still believe them! Its madness!


Though I will say I disagree somewhat on your "true" dominance opinion. I consider dominance more like a state of mind. A "dominant" individual, to me, is less of an animal that is constantly trying to climb some imaginary hierarchy, or an animal that is uncontrollably aggressive, so much as it is an animal that is EXTREMELY self secure, very aware of its space and presence, and isn't apt to being manipulated by outside forces. A not-always biddable dog, who is very likely to take charge of a situation without consent from the owner. When I think of a "dominant" dog, I think of an Akita, or a Neo Mastiff. Not crazy uncontrollable dogs, but dogs who are very (VERY) commanding in general presence, and will act when they feel action is needed.

But that's just my personal opinion :laugh:
 

· Registered
Joined
·
301 Posts
Did you read the article I posted?



When your dogs are playing is there a threat or an altercation? Or are they just having fun, and occasionally communicating that the other dog went to far or is about to, and should back off?

You accuse others of not being open minded enough to accept what you say, but have you entertained the thought that you might be wrong? That you're misinterpreting your dogs' behavior, or misusing terminology?
thats the thing we may all be wrong or we may all be right.just for the record,at the top of the video it states clearly playful alpha rolling.I know that this is not a real drawn out roll to the death.in the clip it show acero playfully using both feet to pull oso over and in others oso rolls willingly but is not threatned by her behaviour because he sees no threat in her intentions.But,aceros intentions are there none the less that she is learning to dominate oso in small stages.she's pushing to see how far she can get.at this stage they are having fun but are also learning and taking in new things.
I believe Dogs do not think in their mind that they feel like going out and having fun.I believe in instinct and that what oso and acero are doing is related to practicing and honing life saving skills that would be beneficial to them to survive.We attribute human emotions to animals far to often and end up witha big mess and scratch our heads wondering why animals don't understand what you are asking of them.
I do believe i know my dogs best when it come to related behaviors.And since my dogs listen well and respect me and vice versa and I really do not have issues with them,then why would i start questioning if I may be wrong?I do not demand that other people see my views and apply them to their dogs.I state what I see and thats it.It would be entirley different with the rolling if I was demanding and telling everyone else that their method won't work or that they are cruel or inhumane.I have been in a deffensive mode since this thread started.Not once have I stated their methods are wrong or inhumane somehow.I agree everyone has a right to their own perspective but i do not have to jump on the band wagon with them.I see many thread i disagree with and I may mention my approach but I never state they are wrong or need a better way
.AND YOU KNOW SOMETIMES TALK IS CHEAP TOO.I see alot of advice but every once in awhile you like to know its coming from a valueable and believeable source.I CAME ON HERE TO LEARN.To see other peoples ideas and approaches,to keep an open mind because I want to be the best owner I can be.and yes,with the right thread offer some advice that I have had first hand experiencing and give my view to be helpful to other owners.But I have run into a few posts that started a run of bad feelings and tension.And topics end up being way off the topic because of it.
 

· Super Moderator
Cava, floofy supermodel
Joined
·
20,575 Posts
I see alot of advice but every once in awhile you like to know its coming from a valueable and believeable source.
We have a ton of new members who just joined this year, after the board was sold, but there are still people who have been here for a long time, and they have years of history that you can read if you want to know more about them - all you have to do is click on their username to the left of their posts and in the drop down box select "find all posts by______".

I've posted lots of pictures of my dogs, and videos too, and have talked a lot about the training I've done with them. In this thread for example, I discuss the foundation training I did with Halo from the time she was a puppy: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...sweet-calm-5-month-old-puppy-out-control.html

To see their threads you can go to their profile, click on "statistics" and select "find all threads started by_______".

I understand your point, and it's a valid one, but there's a lot of information here about everybody who's been actively posting for awhile, you just need to know where to look for it.
 

· Super Moderator
Cava, floofy supermodel
Joined
·
20,575 Posts
Halo is the little sable girl who was running circles around the table, Keefer is the black and red boy she was trying to incite! :rofl: Those two make me laugh every day. :wub:

It's interesting, because if you don't know the dynamic between the two of them and only watched this video you might think that he's getting the better of her, especially when she's on the floor underneath him, but you'd be completely wrong. She is more than a match for him and has been since the time she was a puppy. We used to watch them together when she was 1/4 his size, and comment to each other "she's going to kick his *** some day". :wild: Good thing he's so patient with her antics, or it could have been ugly!
 

· Registered
Joined
·
301 Posts
we have a ton of new members who just joined this year, after the board was sold, but there are still people who have been here for a long time, and they have years of history that you can read if you want to know more about them - all you have to do is click on their username to the left of their posts and in the drop down box select "find all posts by______".

I've posted lots of pictures of my dogs, and videos too, and have talked a lot about the training i've done with them. In this thread for example, i discuss the foundation training i did with halo from the time she was a puppy: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...sweet-calm-5-month-old-puppy-out-control.html

to see their threads you can go to their profile, click on "statistics" and select "find all threads started by_______".

I understand your point, and it's a valid one, but there's a lot of information here about everybody who's been actively posting for awhile, you just need to know where to look for it.
thanks for the info and will do.cheers for now and i guess we'RE close enough TO THE 25 to say "i hope you have a merry xmas!"
 
101 - 120 of 121 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top