What do y'all think about pinning/alpha roll

8844 Views 120 Replies 31 Participants Last post by codmaster, Dec 11, 2010

Heagler870

Discussion Starter · Nov 30, 2010

I have heard some people hate it and some people love it, or at least think it's a natural training method. I have never done this physically to my dogs but my pup Riley will submissivly roll on his back when I give him the "You're in trouble look." I used to get on the floor and play with him and that's when he started doing it. It would be when I would love on him and put my face around his neck. That's when he would automatically do it. Now he just does it if I give him a certain look, or when I give him a good ole belly rub! What is your opinion of people who purposfully incorporate "Pinning" or the "Alpha roll" for training?

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Jax's Mom

· #21 · Dec 6, 2010

codmaster said:
on the other hand, i have had to get physical with my dogs on a couple of occasions (back when I was younger and more brave (foolish). Once when my then 10/11 mo male GSD (from one of the toughest male GSD German imports decided that he didn't want to give up his real bone that I had given him and showed his teeth and made a really nasty growl when I reached for it. Without thinking of the consequences, I grabbed him by the scruff of the neck and gave him a very low "NO" and a shake. He accepted it and never again decided that I could not take something out of his mouth. Second time was when I threw a toy for my two female GSD's to chase and the younger one got it first and the older decided that she wanted it and jumped on the younger one and it was on! I grabbed both by the scruff of their respective necks and told them to stop it and by some miracle I was unscathed - could have gotten bit by both of them I realized later but it turned out ok. I was lucky!

But I often wonder what would have happened if i had backed off from my young male GSD when he growled??

Jax started the same thing when he was 15ish weeks old. It was adorable and hilarious because he was actually saying "bow wow!" in his little puppy voice... then it got concerning and I decided it was going to stop. It took a few rolls but he got the hint (I still miss the adorable "bow wow" though

)

Ucdcrush

· #22 · Dec 7, 2010

When I have seen Cesar do it (and his show is probably what has people talking about it more recently), he usually does it to a point where the dog exhales like a sense of relief. From being a human and watching it, it's as if the dog has accepted that what he thought was so terrible (a human, another dog, etc.) is, in fact something he can live with, because there is a CALM ASSERTIVE human who is holding him calmly in that position. And he is not dying, the person is not freaking, etc.

Here is a video where he does it and talks about it:

beowolf

· #23 · Dec 7, 2010

Heagler870 said:
I have heard some people hate it and some people love it, or at least think it's a natural training method. I have never done this physically to my dogs but my pup Riley will submissivly roll on his back when I give him the "You're in trouble look." I used to get on the floor and play with him and that's when he started doing it. It would be when I would love on him and put my face around his neck. That's when he would automatically do it. Now he just does it if I give him a certain look, or when I give him a good ole belly rub! What is your opinion of people who purposfully incorporate "Pinning" or the "Alpha roll" for training?

I don't recommend this with large breed dogs. I'm not a professional trainer, but as someone whose owned dogs for 30+ years, I know better than to try and pin a 100 pound dog down to the ground while staring in it's eyes making the dog think I've gone crazy. The dog will react to this unusual behavior, and it may not be friendly, even if he loves you.

You want to assert your dominance over your dog, let him go a day without eating. Remind him whose hand feeds him. You'll get more mileage out of doing that than you will trying to WWF your dog.

Tropism

· #24 · Dec 7, 2010

I think that scruffing is appropriate for severe offenses, and pinning or forcefully restraining a dog can be very effective, particularly with younger pups. But you have to use it with consideration, both in type and strength, and you have to use it precisely, and you have to use it predictably. And that's with what I would consider a 'normal' dog -- not an insanely reactive one like the dog in the above video.

But the important thing is that significant physical punishment shouldn't be used unless it's the only recourse due to practical constraints (the dog has to learn its lesson NOW or it's in/being a danger) or because you've exhausted the reasonable other options. You also have to mark it properly so that the dog understands that punishment will come when it performs this action, but learns that punishment only comes when it has been marked, and so gets a chance to check its action.

I think that the age of the dog also matters significantly. Pups usually respond pretty well to a stern voice and restraint: grabbing them by the nape of the neck and forcing them down or away and holding them immobile works particularly well, since they're used to getting mouthed like this by their mom. However, if the dog was reactive and older, or particularly handler-sensitive, or a host of other things, I wouldn't feel comfortable doing this, and would probably prefer an e-collar or something similar. But puppies? Works just fine. Immediately rewarding them for calming down/submitting/relenting also helps reinforce the lesson and reinforce that while engaging in a behavior brings a negative stimulus, not engaging in it brings a positive one -and- the cessation of the negative stimulus.

Also, in this case, I'm not entirely sure that 'punishment' is what's happening here -- forced habituation is more like it. Caesar actually uses quite a few behavioral techniques that seem sort of ridiculous to laypeople. One of these is that it's hard to maintain a conditioned response if you're not allowed to actually perform that response. This shows both at the point where he moves the dog's tail out from between its legs and when he pins the dog down and doesn't let it move. The dog learns that a: what it's doing isn't working, b: this guy isn't doing anything that's actually hurting me, and (hopefully) c: god, this is exhausting, if he does this every time I do that, I'll just sit there instead. Also, by not letting the dog get all hyped up and engage in the behaviors its been engaging in, it helps wind the dog down.

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ILGHAUS

· #25 · Dec 7, 2010

And how many times has he been bit? How many people have been bit because of him showing his alpha roll?

Last I heard he was backing off promoting the alpha roll per his *talks* with the American Humane Association. For those who do not know the AHA is the group that monitors the care and treatment of animals during TV and movie making. They and CM have had clashes when he has refused any of their representatives on location while he tapes his shows.

Read the "Quotes from Experts"
Talk Softly and Carry a Carrot or a Big Stick?
By Jean Donaldson, Director of The SF/SPCA Academy for Dog Trainers
Here you will see what many of the world's experts think of CM.
Modern Dog Training vs. Cesar Millan

Just a few partial quotes from the article:

We’ve written to National Geographic Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years.”
Dr. Nicholas Dodman - Professor and Head, Section of Animal Behavior
Director of Behavior Clinic, Tufts University - Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine

"To co-opt a word like ‘whispering’ for arcane, violent and technically unsound practice is unconscionable.”
Jean Donaldson, The San Francisco SPCA-Director of The Academy for Dog Trainers

"Many of the techniques he encourages the public to try are dangerous, and not good for dogs or our relationships with them ."
Dr. Suzanne Hetts, Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist, Co-owner of Animal Behavior Associates, Inc., Littleton, CO

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Tropism

· #26 · Dec 7, 2010

beowolf said:
You want to assert your dominance over your dog, let him go a day without eating. Remind him whose hand feeds him. You'll get more mileage out of doing that than you will trying to WWF your dog.

Eeh. I'm not sure that you could count on all dogs to learn the lesson. Possibly not even most dogs.

I think the problem with alpha-rolling and other restraint-based discipline comes when you're dealing with a hyped up dog who's never encountered anything similar before. If a dog is used to engaging in roughhouse physical play with its owner, being rolled isn't something that's new to it, and it may actually see the initial rolling as play, or at least have the thought that being approached like that isn't going to lead to pain. It's when they get restrained that they'd get annoyed.

If, on the other hand, they're raised by an owner who believes that hugging/wrestling/push-em-around-and-bowl-em-over play is inappropriate or who simply never engages in it, (like an owner with a dog they can't even stand to be near,) then the dog is suddenly being aggressed upon and dominated. It doesn't have a learned frame of reference for this stimulus -- it has never associated a strong physical advance and manipulation by its owner with 'play' since it was a young puppy -- and has to fall back on instincts, which would include fear and could lead down the path to a bad bite.

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Tropism

· #27 · Dec 7, 2010

ILGHAUS said:
"Many of the techniques he encourages the public to try are dangerous, and not good for dogs or our relationships with them ."
Dr. Suzanne Hetts, Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist, Co-owner of Animal Behavior Associates, Inc., Littleton, CO

I think that this is the real reason why people shouldn't be advised to do things like an alpha roll. It's not that they don't work. It's not even that they're necessarily hard to execute, or that, if done correctly, they cause some sort of psychological damage to the dog. But people tend to -suck- at applying punishments like this, don't understand -how- to apply them, don't understand when to release them, and use them for things that don't deserve this level of response or think that the objective is to cause the dog pain. Oh, and they have no clue how to tell that it'd be stupid for them to even try this with a certain dog because it'll get their face bitten off.

beowolf

· #28 · Dec 7, 2010 (Edited)

Tropism said:
Eeh. I'm not sure that you could count on all dogs to learn the lesson. Possibly not even most dogs.

I'm only counting on my dog learning the lesson.
If you have a dog that doesn't understand, then your role as pack leader isn't firmly established with your dog. Part of being a pack leader is being a food source. If your dog is unsure about where it's food comes from, you're heading down a slippery slope. I want my dog to ALWAYS understand that I'm not only his source of food, I'm the source of his lack of food. I'm the pack leader.

Denali Girl

· #29 · Dec 7, 2010

Konotashi said:
But watch their behavior. You will never see a wolf FORCE another on its back. The submissive one always does so on its own.

Yes I agree with you. When my pup gets with her sister she approaches her with her head down low and ears back, it's neat to realy watch them and how they interact. The last time they got together my dog did something to her sister and the sister let out such a growl and showed her teeth and my dog went right to her back lol. My friend and his wife started running toward them because they thought they were fighting but they weren't, they got back up and started playing ball.

ayoitzrimz

· #30 · Dec 7, 2010

Just my 2 cents:
I would never alpha roll my dog and would never recommend to anyone to do it. Just like people have posted this is NOT a natural behavior in wolves as previously thought. Actually, this position is GIVEN by the submissive dog rather than FORCED upon. Am I positive training, clicker type of person? Not at all! I do correct my dog and use touch as well leash corrections as necessary. I've also established rules that my dog KNOWS must be kept. With that said, I do reward him generously with play when he does the wanted behavior and train him daily (in Schutzhund). Bottom line is this: Both corrections and rewards are necessary in educating a dog (in my opinion) but bullying a dog into submission can lead to a dog who's afraid of touch at best and a bite to the face at worse. There are better ways to be a leader.
I do, however, understand that alpha rolling is a method that works _when done correctly_ but 99% of the population simply cannot perform it correctly (that includes myself). The Monks of New Skete, who popularized the alpha roll confessed in the second edition of their most famous book that they wished they'd never recommended the technique.

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codmaster

· #31 · Dec 7, 2010

I would also never try a roll on our dog. he will however roll himself over when he wants a belly rub - almost every morning when i let him out of his crate he will try one. Then often when I am rubbing his belly he is obviously not cowed (or terribly submissive) as he will often try to grab my hand with his mouth!. Not a bite just a mouth - he has always been mouthy ever since he was a little puppy.

codmaster

· #32 · Dec 7, 2010

ILGHAUS said:
And how many times has he been bit? How many people have been bit because of him showing his alpha roll?

Last I heard he was backing off promoting the alpha roll per his *talks* with the American Humane Association. For those who do not know the AHA is the group that monitors the care and treatment of animals during TV and movie making. They and CM have had clashes when he has refused any of their representatives on location while he tapes his shows.

Read the "Quotes from Experts"
Talk Softly and Carry a Carrot or a Big Stick?
By Jean Donaldson, Director of The SF/SPCA Academy for Dog Trainers
Here you will see what many of the world's experts think of CM.
Modern Dog Training vs. Cesar Millan

Just a few partial quotes from the article:

We’ve written to National Geographic Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years.”
Dr. Nicholas Dodman - Professor and Head, Section of Animal Behavior
Director of Behavior Clinic, Tufts University - Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine

"To co-opt a word like ‘whispering’ for arcane, violent and technically unsound practice is unconscionable.”
Jean Donaldson, The San Francisco SPCA-Director of The Academy for Dog Trainers

"Many of the techniques he encourages the public to try are dangerous, and not good for dogs or our relationships with them ."
Dr. Suzanne Hetts, Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist, Co-owner of Animal Behavior Associates, Inc., Littleton, CO

And we should probably also count the number of dogs that were headed for the needle before he came across them, you think?

And it sounds like the folks that you have quoted are definetly "Positive only" advocates whom would of course be violently opposed to anything like Cesars approach just on principle alone.

And then throw in a little professional jealosy at his wide audience and you have a really good reason to oppose Cesar or at least that is my reasoning.

Maybe it would be good to see the violent aggressive dogs that the above spokesmen opposing Cesar's methods have actually rehabilitated?

shannonrae

· #33 · Dec 7, 2010

codmaster said:
And we should probably also count the number of dogs that were headed for the needle before he came across them, you think?

Maybe it would be good to see the violent aggressive dogs that the above spokesmen opposing Cesar's methods have actually rehabilitated?

Indeed!

I will alpha roll one of my dogs if needed. Only in situations where the dog is to overstimulated to obey commands.
My first GSD (rescue) was very dog aggressive. Even from a distance he would attempt to pull me over to the "offending" dog and try to attack (and he did mean business). He got rolled a couple of times, but he figured out quickly that if he sat and did not lunge/growl/act like an idiot that he would save himself embarrassment. It was no time at all before he realized he did not need to go into attack mode and that some friendly (or in his case tolerated) sniffing was not such a bad thing. I do not believe it damaged our relationship in the least. Bear trusted me completely and would let me do anything I wanted to him until the day he died.
This method is not for every dog or owner and should not be attempted by everyone. I only do it with dogs I have a relationship with and trust, and have never been bitten by any of them.
If you are going to use an alpha roll as a training aid it is important to show the dog what he can do to avoid a roll. And a roll should be used only in situations where the dog is attempting to cause harm.

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ayoitzrimz

· #34 · Dec 7, 2010

codmaster said:
And we should probably also count the number of dogs that were headed for the needle before he came across them, you think?

And it sounds like the folks that you have quoted are definetly "Positive only" advocates whom would of course be violently opposed to anything like Cesars approach just on principle alone.

And then throw in a little professional jealosy at his wide audience and you have a really good reason to oppose Cesar or at least that is my reasoning.

Maybe it would be good to see the violent aggressive dogs that the above spokesmen opposing Cesar's methods have actually rehabilitated?

Very well said! I stand corrected on my previous post. Sometimes, when done by a professional, an alpha roll will produce good results. If I had to choose between alpha rolling an aggressive dog (if I was a professional) or dumping him in the shelter or worse... I would ALWAYS choose to do what I can to rehabilitate the dog. IF that means alpha rolling and dominating him, I'm sure he would make the same choice if he knew the alternative.

P.S. yes, Jean Donaldson is a positive clicker only advocate and yes, I'd love to see a head count of the number of dogs she rehabilitated vs. Cesar. BUT Cesar is a professional, and I simply think there are better ways to correct a dog than alpha roll him for the average dog owner.

codmaster

· #35 · Dec 7, 2010

I certainly agree that the average dog owner should not try the roll! Too dangerous!

That is true with many things in life - a pro can do it and it works but not so good for the average DIY.

Ucdcrush

· #36 · Dec 8, 2010

Cesar does not explicitly advocate trying his techniques, in fact he explicitly advocates contacting a professional and not trying the techniques at home.

And if I were him, knowing what he could do, why invite the humane society to the shoot? He knows what he's doing and it is not his intention to hurt the dog, so having the humane society involved doesn't really make any sense.

All CM threads eventually head to the positive vs. not debate, interestingly.

Montana Scout

· #37 · Dec 8, 2010

i alpha roll my dog when he gets too overbearing and distraction doesn't work, but it seems as soon as i roll him on his back, straddle him and grab his neck he submits just a couple seconds later, then i talk to him in a calm voice telling him to settle down and he does.. at least for an hour or so, but he's still not as obnoxious indoors

PaddyD

· #38 · Dec 8, 2010

I pinned my dog a few (less than 6?) times in her 6 - 8 month mouthy period when her attitude became too aggressive. That was almost a year ago and she has become a very nice and fun dog that knows when to ease off.

onyx'girl

· #39 · Dec 8, 2010 (Edited)

So if you had to do it 6 times, it obviously didn't work?
If the attitude gets "too aggressive" at my house, the dog just wins the crate.
I think maturity helps dogs know when to ease off. I doubt the pinning had much to do with it.
I'd rather work on a strong bond at 6-8 months and have the dog be willing to please than pin or roll it to comply. Pinning/alpha rolling does nothing for bonding.

Zoeys mom

· #40 · Dec 8, 2010

I've never felt the need to pin a dog- is this just me? If a dog is hyper and out of control jumping and nipping it is either a puppy, isn't getting enough exercise, or both,lol Pinning for these behaviors IMO is just pointless since they are either encouraged by age, or the laziness of their owner. Engage your dog mentally and physically and not only will they be calmer, but learn to see you as their leader and friend.

Pinning for aggressive behaviors is not something I would encourage either. Aggression usually is a sign of illness, lack of socialization, or fear, and not because the dog is "mean". So if you are pinning a dog that falls under these categories you are ignoring and not treating an illness, or reinforcing that humans can be scary. I've never met a dog that needed to be dominated. I've met dogs with poor manners, that weren't socialized, or were abused and all they needed was patience and slow and consistent training.

Experienced or not I just can't believe pinning an out of control animal is the only option, or even useful in developing a bond and shaping appropriate behaviors. Dogs learn to respect you through praise, games, and yummy treats without creating a tense situation or scaring them into submission- JMO

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