[codmaster]

I would suggest that if you are going to "alpha roll" a GSD then either he/she should be very young and small OR you had better be very physically strong enough and know what you are doing as it could get very tense very quickly depending on the dog and his/her personality and your relationship with them.

on the other hand, i have had to get physical with my dogs on a couple of occasions (back when I was younger and more brave (foolish). Once when my then 10/11 mo male GSD (from one of the toughest male GSD German imports decided that he didn't want to give up his real bone that I had given him and showed his teeth and made a really nasty growl when I reached for it. Without thinking of the consequences, I grabbed him by the scruff of the neck and gave him a very low "NO" and a shake. He accepted it and never again decided that I could not take something out of his mouth. Second time was when I threw a toy for my two female GSD's to chase and the younger one got it first and the older decided that she wanted it and jumped on the younger one and it was on! I grabbed both by the scruff of their respective necks and told them to stop it and by some miracle I was unscathed - could have gotten bit by both of them I realized later but it turned out ok. I was lucky!

But I often wonder what would have happened if i had backed off from my young male GSD when he growled??

 

[codmaster]

I would also never try a roll on our dog. he will however roll himself over when he wants a belly rub - almost every morning when i let him out of his crate he will try one. Then often when I am rubbing his belly he is obviously not cowed (or terribly submissive) as he will often try to grab my hand with his mouth!. Not a bite just a mouth - he has always been mouthy ever since he was a little puppy.

 

[codmaster]

And how many times has he been bit? How many people have been bit because of him showing his alpha roll?

Last I heard he was backing off promoting the alpha roll per his *talks* with the American Humane Association. For those who do not know the AHA is the group that monitors the care and treatment of animals during TV and movie making. They and CM have had clashes when he has refused any of their representatives on location while he tapes his shows.

Read the "Quotes from Experts"
Talk Softly and Carry a Carrot or a Big Stick?
By Jean Donaldson, Director of The SF/SPCA Academy for Dog Trainers
Here you will see what many of the world's experts think of CM.
Modern Dog Training vs. Cesar Millan

Just a few partial quotes from the article:

We’ve written to National Geographic Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years.”
Dr. Nicholas Dodman - Professor and Head, Section of Animal Behavior
Director of Behavior Clinic, Tufts University - Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine

"To co-opt a word like ‘whispering’ for arcane, violent and technically unsound practice is unconscionable.”
Jean Donaldson, The San Francisco SPCA-Director of The Academy for Dog Trainers

"Many of the techniques he encourages the public to try are dangerous, and not good for dogs or our relationships with them ."
Dr. Suzanne Hetts, Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist, Co-owner of Animal Behavior Associates, Inc., Littleton, CO

And we should probably also count the number of dogs that were headed for the needle before he came across them, you think?

And it sounds like the folks that you have quoted are definetly "Positive only" advocates whom would of course be violently opposed to anything like Cesars approach just on principle alone.

And then throw in a little professional jealosy at his wide audience and you have a really good reason to oppose Cesar or at least that is my reasoning.

Maybe it would be good to see the violent aggressive dogs that the above spokesmen opposing Cesar's methods have actually rehabilitated?

 

[codmaster]

I certainly agree that the average dog owner should not try the roll! Too dangerous!

That is true with many things in life - a pro can do it and it works but not so good for the average DIY.

 

[codmaster]

Personally I have never rolled my current dog (but felt like spanking him a couple times!!!!!!!) but I have grabbedboth sides of his head and looked deep into his eyes and explained what proper behavior is! he seemed to get the idea and certainly never seemed too upset about it. OTOH, he is a very "hard" dog and criticism never seemed to phase him unlike some of our earlier dogs.

The key is to find out which approach to training and "Corrections" work best for you and your dog.

 

[codmaster]

Guess some mother dogs are just nicer to their pups than other ones. A couple that we have seen have corrected their pups when they got a little rough with little puppy teeth - once on a pup that we later took home. So that one pup at least was accustomed to being corrected without a treat! didn't seem to have any discernible bad affect on the mother-puppy relationship.

 

[codmaster]

no, it's not. But most dogs won't fear their owners simply because they have been punished; the problem comes when the punishments are routinely excessive, when they're applied on a noncontingent basis (that is, the dog doesn't understand that it's being punished for a specific 'crime' it has committed,) and when the dog generally receives conflicting messages. This is why you see dogs that look shame-faced when their owner comes home and they've crapped in the house. They know that the presence of poo in the house will equal punishment when their owner comes home, though they don't make the leap that them defecating in the house equals poo on the floor. So they come to their owner seeking their owner's attention and social presence, but at the same time know that there's poo in the house and fear punishment. Sometimes, the dog is punished so randomly it cannot even have the comfort of knowing that it's safe when there's no poo in the house, or even when it's performing acts you ask of it, and then you just get that constant, pathetic, whipped-dog look whenever they're approached, that look of 'please don't hurt me but i want to be near you' that just makes me want to beat their owners with a stick.

A dog that learns that going in the garbage gets it squirted in the face with a water bottle doesn't come to fear its owner, even though it may hate getting sprayed more than being yelled at or held down or anything else reasonable, because it quickly learns that it'll only get squirted in the face under certain conditions. If it doesn't perform the actions that result in the squirting, it won't have to fear it. They'll even learn that, if they get squirted in the face while doing something new, or even if you just say the word you usually do right before they squirt them, that -they're doing something new- that may be punished, which is frankly an astonishing cognitive leap.

As with a child, 'discipline' doesn't mean beatings and 'punishment' doesn't mean causing pain. I'm willing to bet that most people heres' parents have disciplined them pretty harshly on occasion, even if they didn't resort to spanking. (no one can crush someone with guilt like a mother.) do you hate them for it? Odds are, if the punishments were appropriate for the crime, and were applied fairly, that no, you don't. You probably thank them for it. It seems to me that it's similar in dogs -- occasional, just punishment -- helps them learn boundaries.

very well said and an excellent explanation!

 

[codmaster]

.......................
And my last opinion, with limited experience...is that not one person will completely agree on small training points, let alone a large one like this.

Ain't that the truth!

 

[codmaster]

.....................................

............. so much as it is an animal that is EXTREMELY self secure, very aware of its space and presence, and isn't apt to being manipulated by outside forces. A not-always biddable dog, who is very likely to take charge of a situation without consent from the owner. When I think of a "dominant" dog, I think of an Akita, or a Neo Mastiff. Not crazy uncontrollable dogs, but dogs who are very (VERY) commanding in general presence, and will act when they feel action is needed......

Very true about very self confident dogs - but I don't think it is a breed thing - more of an individual dog thing although it might be more common in some breeds.

I have a male GSD (3yo) that is like that. A little DA aggressive at times but not bad and is by far the most self confident and independent dog i have ever owned or even seen. the animal behaviorist we consult with called him the "most self confident dog that she has ever came across". And she likes him very much! The breeder that we got him fromhas a Saturday class that a lot of her customers come to each week - she has told me that it seems like Baron considers all of these dogs HIS pack and that he is in charge.

It is very interesting to own such a dog, believe me. We have had many "discussions" on who is in charge over the last 3 years! He is a sweetheart most of the time!