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Fear as a motivator?Consequences do not have to invoke fear to be effective. I get the point he's trying to make.
 
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Here's a quote from an Australian working dog trainer:

"Trust is the balance of dominance and friendship," he says.
"And that 'dominance' needs to be made up of 95 per cent understanding and 5 per cent fear."
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Fear as a motivator?Consequences do not have to invoke fear to be effective. I get the point he's trying to make.
Fear might be the wrong word since he is not talking about true fear, maybe avoiding a dislike. I mean I'm not in true fear of getting a ticket but I would like to avoid it and I dislike the hassle and expense involved.
 

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I'm thinking about owners new to the breed taking it literally.Analogies such as this are insidious for sounding logical at first glance.
Person 1 - Amazing! Why is your dog so well trained and obedient?
GSD owner - Because he's afraid not to be
 

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David Winners summed it up here:

"The threat of consequence has to be there, in the back of their mind, keeping them honest."
But not for all things all of the time is my point. Again, new owners thinking it's a good idea to base the beginning of the relationship with their dog on "do as I say Or Else". It's the way it was written is all.
 

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But not for all things all of the time is my point. Again, new owners thinking it's a good idea to base the beginning of the relationship with their dog on "do as I say Or Else". It's the way it was written is all.
I think this is a great point to repeat! Consequences may apply in training dogs in some circumstances, but not to little puppies!

Imagine the cognitive and developmental damage that would occur if a parent chose to slap a little human baby's hand everytime they grabbed an item and tried to put it in their mouth, as opposed to gently preventing the baby from mouthing anything harmful!

Consequences/aka corrections are not at all appropriate or beneficial until the puppy matures enough to understand. And even then should be carefully administered in an age appropriate manner!

I realize that baby puppies are not the focus of the blog post, but it's still good to emphasize IMO...

Truth be told, I liked the analogy, but got a bit lost in paragraph 3:

"The reality is, as much as folks want to believe in a fantasy land where authority, and fear of negative consequences play no role in dog training, or living well with dogs, anyone whos's more committed to truly honest observations than ideologically possession, will acknowledge that reality doesn't do the fantasy, utopian thing very well."

Say what? LOL!
 

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@tim_s_adams I deciphered it as positive only training isn't realistic (I agree) but presented to leave the reader with an impression of his superior intellect;)
 
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@hanshund nobody on this thread is against consequences. Tim and I don't feel the wording was a good choice.
 

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@hanshund nobody on this thread is against consequences. Tim and I don't feel the wording was a good choice.
Read what he wrote again:

I think this is a great point to repeat! Consequences may apply in training dogs in some circumstances, but not to little puppies!

Puppies are corrected as early as two weeks and generally by 4 weeks puppies have experienced not only positive punishment but negative reinforcement as well.
 

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I'm not arguing with you, sorry! If you approve of Mr. O'shea's writing you're entitled to do so.The subject of how mother dogs raise their puppies would be an interesting thread on it's own if you'd care to start one.
 
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Consequences can be good or bad. The things he’s addressing here is that to get the most reliable dog, that have to be aware of consequences both ways. There’s an emotional response to the use of the word fear. In a lot people’s minds it brings this image of cowering or always bringing down the hammer like a dictator. The wording isn’t wrong but could definitely be clearer. This is only addressing a piece of training that is often left out by certain crowds. I don’t think it’s meant to address it in it’s entirety as that is impossible to do.
 

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I think this is a great point to repeat! Consequences may apply in training dogs in some circumstances, but not to little puppies!

Imagine the cognitive and developmental damage that would occur if a parent chose to slap a little human baby's hand everytime they grabbed an item and tried to put it in their mouth, as opposed to gently preventing the baby from mouthing anything harmful!

Consequences/aka corrections are not at all appropriate or beneficial until the puppy matures enough to understand. And even then should be carefully administered in an age appropriate manner!

I realize that baby puppies are not the focus of the blog post, but it's still good to emphasize IMO...

Truth be told, I liked the analogy, but got a bit lost in paragraph 3:

"The reality is, as much as folks want to believe in a fantasy land where authority, and fear of negative consequences play no role in dog training, or living well with dogs, anyone whos's more committed to truly honest observations than ideologically possession, will acknowledge that reality doesn't do the fantasy, utopian thing very well."

Say what? LOL!
Consequences aren’t just corrections and corrections aren’t just physical discomfort. Consequences, both good and bad, play a role in the dogs life from the very beginning. I think it’s an important piece of clear communication. 8 week old puppies are not little babies and are at very different stages of development from a human baby. An 8 week old puppy could be placed in an environment with food, water, shelter and survive. It takes a lot longer before a human baby is even able to feed itself. Its a long time before a baby is left to their own devices. It’s a poor comparison. I could go on but I think the point is made. Puppies are mature enough to understand corrections long before they leave their dam. If your puppy was chewing something inappropriate you would stop them and give them something appropriate typically. You would use the amount of force you need to however.
 

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Everybody is a genius, but if you judge a fish by the ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid. – Albert Einstein.

That is one of my favorite quotes ever.
Though fear is one of the most basic emotions and will be present in any mammal's life, I truly believe we should never take it for granted that it's easy for anyone to "do as you say". Our priorities should be understanding what that little mammal needs, how they function and how to help them strive, so we apply rules that are actually possible for them to navigate.
Once we've done all the homework, maybe we can start asking them to do as we say. It's not a right, it's a privilege and you need to earn it.
I know the kids/dogs analogy isn't trendy these days, but I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss it. Depends what you are trying to say. We are mammals too :)
So many kids AND dogs are messed up every day because their so-called "leaders" don't have a clue how their brains actually work and what you can or cannot legitimately expect from them.
The day everyone's potential will be explored and correctly developped, a ton of issues will just stop existing.
 

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Consequences can be good or bad. The things he’s addressing here is that to get the most reliable dog, that have to be aware of consequences both ways. There’s an emotional response to the use of the word fear. In a lot people’s minds it brings this image of cowering or always bringing down the hammer like a dictator. The wording isn’t wrong but could definitely be clearer. This is only addressing a piece of training that is often left out by certain crowds. I don’t think it’s meant to address it in it’s entirety as that is impossible to do.
Where I live there are too many people that have that "dictator" mentality towards their dogs.Then there's the other extreme :rolleyes: When Samson was a youngster I chose a force free class to attend for the express purpose of exposure to safe dogs and people that would stay out of his face. The trainers were a bit peeved at me when I wouldn't participate in what they called - taking treats from strangers to socialize.My agenda was for him to relax and ignore.The last two classes we remained in the circle while he sat next to me and calmly ignored offered treats. There was another GSD there that was really fearful and seemed overwhelmed to be in a group. A couple of times after class we would walk around together outside and her dog and Samson got along famously. It was a good experience for us at that point in time.Being stuck in that mindset would not have been good long term.

On the other hand there were two other dogs and owners that very obviously got nothing out of that type of class. A Scotty that barked hysterically and a very hyper Redbone which both needed a firmer hand.It was painful to watch the trainers getting absolutely nowhere with those two.There was a little King Charles Spaniel there that was the superstar. That class was meant for him.
So all my rambling is meant to caution folks to not get trapped in a rut or certain method.
 
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