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They don't. IPO is a sport, it has established rules and standards. Without participating in IPO the dog cannot be qualified as a GSD for breeding. Here, you see, it is Germany who dictates. And it doesn't matter which one of two breeding lines your dog represents, you still have to prove that your dog is capable mentally and physically to pass those tests. No wonder why people with money prefer imports from established kennels in Germany - they are the dogs of dream. They can be Police dogs and control the crowd, and they can be service dogs, anything you want - depends on training, no behavioral issues whatsoever. And the German rules are getting harder, if you mind yourself a quality breeder - you should know that for US and any other breederis required a with DNA test, all existing in the world breeding lines should be traced back to Germany with DNA test: Sirius Dog

Wembley, you are preaching to the choir, though I'm not sure just which choir. Sometimes the best way to learn is to listen.
 

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Sometimes the best way to learn is to listen.
I am a composer of my own music, a pure solo. You sound as you are sulking... Maybe I am wrong. I'm surprised that you have read such a bulk of information send by me so quickly.
 

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They don't. IPO is a sport, it has established rules and standards. Without participating in IPO the dog cannot be qualified as a GSD for breeding. Here, you see, it is Germany who dictates. And it doesn't matter which one of two breeding lines your dog represents, you still have to prove that your dog is capable mentally and physically to pass those tests. No wonder why people with money prefer imports from established kennels in Germany - they are the dogs of dream. They can be Police dogs and control the crowd, and they can be service dogs, anything you want - depends on training, no behavioral issues whatsoever. And the German rules are getting harder, if you mind yourself a quality breeder - you should know that for US and any other breederis required a with DNA test, all existing in the world breeding lines should be traced back to Germany with DNA test: Sirius Dog
You missed my point completely.

I'm referring to the trend amongst some sports breeders (not just IPO) who breed for higher and higher prey drive with little balance of the other drives.

They aren't producing dogs that are capable of police work or "what ever you want it just depends on the training."
 

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Sulking? No. I'm a teacher, so used to deciphering and dealing with students. Seriously, not all dogs are able to do any job just because they come from a particular breeder. You're giving a lecture to experts on GSDs. I'm not an expert on GSDs. I have no problem saying so. And I've owned multiple working line GSDs and non working line GSDs. That doesn't make me an expert on GSDs. I've been an obedience trainer since the 80s. That doesn't make me an expert on GSDs. I've trained multiple breeds to herd. That doesn't make me an expert on GSDs. I have been breeding and showing for 24 years. That doesn't make me an expert on GSDs.


To help you from getting others upset with your posts, I suggest the best way to learn is to listen.
 

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Aww ... I'd never be able to be a breeder. :(

I was already in "cat rescue" and that's how I ended up with 17 cats at one point. But puppies ...yeah that would be a fail for me ... my motto would be "No Puppies for Sale Ever!" A pretty poor business model but you know ... what are you gonna do???
 

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Aww ... I'd never be able to be a breeder. :(

I was already in "cat rescue" and that's how I ended up with 17 cats at one point. But puppies ...yeah that would be a fail for me ... my motto would be "No Puppies for Sale Ever!" A pretty poor business model but you know ... what are you gonna do???

I can just see you with 27 Rockys. *G*
 

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Discussion Starter #30
Max von Stephanitz said "The breeding of shepherd dogs is the breeding of working dogs; this must always be the aim, or we shall cease to produce shepherd dogs".
and
"Utility is the true criterion of beauty".

Show line breeding has pretty much destroyed this breed, so much so that it bled into the working lines as well.
Show line breeders who confused "style" with "type" did the damage. Show line breeding is about understanding the anatomy and its function in a trotting breed. Not what "style" will win me the next show title.

MVS aimed to produce a high endurance trotting dog. It is important to understand what makes a dog a good trotting dog. Many show line breeders just went for importing German dog, and advertising the "imported dog" as stud. Others fell victim to that advertising. An imported stud may not always be suitable for a particular bitch.
 

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Show line breeders who confused "style" with "type" did the damage. Show line breeding is about understanding the anatomy and its function in a trotting breed. Not what "style" will win me the next show title.

MVS aimed to produce a high endurance trotting dog. It is important to understand what makes a dog a good trotting dog. Many show line breeders just went for importing German dog, and advertising the "imported dog" as stud. Others fell victim to that advertising. An imported stud may not always be suitable for a particular bitch.
Show me where he wanted to produce a trotting dog, from my understanding he did not breed this dog for show, or to admire the gait. He bred this dog so it can work all day long and love to do so. Function over form. I don't mean to attack you or any show breeder, but I am just totally against show breeding for this particular breed because it is what led to monstrosities like this
 

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quote Tezpur, ---------
My goals are
to breed WGSL

carmspack --- read this discussion first --
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/163886-iceberg-breeders.html

you must understand the genetic material that you are working with .

quote Tezpur , --------- gsds that are of substantial size,

carmspack --- not much of a problem there - in fact most are oversize and efforts are made to measure , record and reduce size
Strange that you would choose this as your first consideration .


Tezpur said ---------
" with good anatomy and no exaggerations."

carmspack questions --------
From the show lines ? Good luck . HOW ?
The conformation is so divorced from anything that even makes sense to a dog , who by design should have a fairly natural canine anatomy .

Tezpur said ------
They should be good show specimens,

carmspack says -------
But , again, the show specimens do not follow good conformation . If you play the game you have to use and produce what the show crowd is rewarding .
You think VA , or V , is ideal or correct ?

Not good enough for a breeder's goals.

do a virtual breeding -- create your dream breeding on paper and let's discuss and learn from that .



another thread with similar content http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/thinking-about-becoming-breeder/646089-becoming-breeder-right-way-i-hope-4.html
 

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To produce a GS that is moderate in size, of the color patterns that are acceptable in the standard, with drives and temperaments capable of performing the functions of the standard and it's legacy, good health and good working structure.
What Cliff said (short and sweet).
 

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Oh man, there are so many things that make a GSD for me and that I would strive to produce but above all else the primary goals are as such:

Stability - I don't care how much working drive your dog has, if it's not stable that really narrows what you can do with the dog. Even as a "personal protection dog", how will it protect you if you cannot take it anywhere? Ability to read situations and react appropriately is very important to me. I want a dog who can go out and perform strong in protection, but be trustworthy when not working, even when in crowds. As well as possess a solid off-switch. But at the same time, I don't feel the German Shepherd should be a bubbly Lab-type, but rather handler focused and neutral to their surroundings, even aloof. That strong connection, reliability, and loyalty to the handler is really what makes the breed for me. It may seem unnecessary to some, but I also value a dog who is fond of children or at least recognizes their innocence. My current male was veeery minimally exposed to children as a puppy and is very territorial around our property. He will charge strange/suspicious people who get too close to the property, yet if a child walks by he will find his ball and "accidentally" drop it over the fence for them to retrieve. He has just always adored children. And of course, nerve strength is a huge factor within stability for me, the dog should not react inappropriately to novel stimulus. It's understandable if certain, high stress things may startle the dog, but they should be able to recover very quickly. The overall stability, I find really lends itself to their versatility.

Working Drives - As said before, balance is very important. I do not want a dog who is all prey, but neither do I want a dog who is all defense. My goal would be dogs who can bring good intensity, and switch between drives, along with a strong fight drive. Not only do I want a dog who will confidently confront the threat, but will only fight it harder when the fight is brought to them. And outside of the main drives, I also want dogs with a good work ethic, who will happily take on any task I put in front of them and ask me for more. Again lending itself to their versatility. Of course, a GSD is not complete without a good hunt drive as well, I like to see dogs who stick with the search, even when it gets hard or facing new obstacles.

Clarity/Mental Flexability - Ability to think, respond, and react appropriately when under stress is very very important. I've owned dogs that, once in drive, become unresponsive and it makes many tasks very difficult. They need to be able to think and respond to commands when in drive, even if that command is simply to calm/cap. And not just respond to commands, but a dog should not turn around and bite you if you try to pet/encourage them while in drive. Clarity of the target is also very important. And another aspect that I often find overlooked is mental flexibility or elasticity as I call it. It is something my current service dog brought to my attention after I had to retire my older dog who had poor nerve strength. But not only was he sensitive to many different things, he would only get worse with exposure. He could even be in situations he was comfortable with initially, but if it wasn't "home" and he was kept there for multiple days his mental state would quickly deteriorate to the point of not longer responding and being on edge constantly.(After working fairly regularly as an SD, he actually developed stomach ulcers from internalizing his stress). My current SD was thrown into a situation where he had to be exposed to something we found out he was afraid of (elevators, never got to expose him to them as I don't live in a big city), and he had to experience at least 12 times a day for 5 days as I took him to a training workshop/conference with multiple classes throughout the day, in a hotel. He had never been away from home for more than a day, yet by the end of the first day he was over his insecurities with the elevators and didn't care. It took maybe 3 exposures before he was fine. Versus my retired dog who took well over a year and lots of conditioning, with my current SD I simply let him experience it on his own. And every day he got better, his focus continued to improve, he never skipped a beat. Even on our final day. My previous dog would've been totally checked out mentally by day 2. (Sorry to ramble, but I find this to often be overlooked but also quite interesting).

Health - You can have the most amazing dog when it comes to every other aspect, but if that dog has crippling health issues... what good is it? You *need* a solid health foundation in your dogs.Of course hip and elbow dysplasia are the main concerns in the breed but DM is also a big concern. The testing as we know is not perfect but we should be doing everything we can as breeders to educate ourselves on DM and prevent it from rearing its head down the line. Beyond genetic health it's also important for breeders to understand how the environment we raise the litter in, the food they eat, and the weight they are kept at can affect their health down the road. We should be doing everything in our power to set them up for success.

Structure
- I feel it is important to understand the breed standard. I know many people will try to blame it for the extremes we see in the breed today but if you actually sit down, read it, and take it in, you will find that it calls for a very structurally sound dog.(The extremes were created within those communities) So I feel it is important to follow as closely as we can (without compromising the above traits of course) to ensure that our dogs' bodies can keep up with their long work life. Again, if you dog has an awesome temperament it is cut short if the dogs' body breaks down on them prematurely. My favorite manifestation so far would have to be Linda Shaw's Illustrated Standard of the German Shepherd Dog.


Too long? My goal would be to produce highly versatile dogs who are stable in pretty much any situation you throw at them, with solid working ability and balance within their drives as well confidence in confronting threats. To produce dogs who have a clear minded, possess strong mental resilience, a solid off switch, health, and structurally sound. And of course, loyal to their handlers, reliable, and a please to work with.
 

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I can just see you with 27 Rockys. *G*
LOL 27 WL GSD's would be insane??? I'm a Boxer guy first ... so kinda nutty???

So twenty Boxers and Seven WL GSD's seems much more reasonable! :p

"No puppies for sale ever!!" So of us are simply not emotionally capably of being breeders. With the cats ... I had three kittens to re-home. Re-homing the first was rough and the second was worst ... I cried when he got adopted and kept the third. Happened again re-homed two kept 3 then just quit "pretending."

Kept them all ... "NV cats are a bunch of A-Holes" by the way ... nother story. :)

But "me" giving up my puppies ... LOL. Yes ... I'd luv to see that happens. It has to challenge emotionally I would imagine???
 

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Discussion Starter #37
Show me where he wanted to produce a trotting dog, from my understanding he did not breed this dog for show, or to admire the gait. He bred this dog so it can work all day long and love to do so. Function over form. I don't mean to attack you or any show breeder, but I am just totally against show breeding for this particular breed because it is what led to monstrosities like this
The dog in the picture is a poorly constructed dog. I am enclosing a picture of a gsd with correct trot. Source: The Forequarter of the German Shepherd Dog - The German Shepherd Dog
 

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Not working structure, that's why top working or sport dogs don't have that structure. It is nice gaiting structure ....but GS was not created to gait, but rather to work. Gaiting is just a small part of work....even in herding. Breeders should understand this and keep it in its perspective...Judges of structure should understand this also.
The GS is a working dog, not a gaiting dog ( though gaiting is part) when assessing structure. Speed, power, explosiveness are also very important in herding dogs. Big, awkward, clumsy, one dimensional are not assets to working/ herding structure,imo.
 

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The dog in the picture is a poorly constructed dog. I am enclosing a picture of a gsd with correct trot. Source: The Forequarter of the German Shepherd Dog - The German Shepherd Dog
I agree the dog pictured is poorly constructed but I would not consider this dog to be gaiting correctly, the leg plains should be fairly level but rather we see one higher than the other. This article has some good food for thought :) Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs

I would agree that this dog's angulation is balanced however, and we see that in the movement shown. But the curvature of the spine (as Louis points out in that article)"impedes energy transmission". Less of the energy generated is being pushed forward in propelling the animal, but rather it's pushed upwards. As he shows here. If the dog above had a straighter back, he would surely have lovely overall movement.
((I am not implying working lines are flawless, there are flaws within each dog and each type of dog. Working lines can sometimes air too much on the side of too little as fair as angulation goes and that is just as faulty in my opinion).
 

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Discussion Starter #40 (Edited)
I agree the dog pictured is poorly constructed but I would not consider this dog to be gaiting correctly, the leg plains should be fairly level but rather we see one higher than the other. This article has some good food for thought :) Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs
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Thanks Cshmidt for the above reference. I appreciate what u are saying. I am a great fan of LD and his painstaking effort to educate people.

I am enclosing A picture of a bred in India WGSL dog, breeder the great Ramesh K. This dog represents good anatomy with no exaggeration (except perhaps the neck is a bit short). I love the topline. Great upper arm and shoulder, high on withers, strong back (no excessive raise in the true back), no over angulation and no loose hocks
 

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