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Discussion Starter #1
I wrote a post titled "odd seizures (w/ youtube video)" - sorry, don't know how to link it here - when the vets thought Bear had epilepsy.

Well, it is not epilepsy. Still don't know what is going on, but they have decided this is not seizures since the last one has resulted in profound ataxia going on 4 days now. She is slowly regaining coordination and the ability to walk, but it has been excruciating. No other symptoms except the ataxia.

Initially her pheno dose was increased after the episode (she had only just started it 5 days prior). We are now weaning her off.

The vet (U of F is back on board) wants to do a "shotgun" round first to rule out inflammation and/or infection w/ a short course of pred and some broad spectrum abx. Honestly, there is no indication of infection, but inflammation could be a problem. No pain though...

I'm wanting to add vit E, B-complex and CoQ10 - waiting for the vet to clear it 1st.

I also found out some interesting things about her breeder. Looks like I'm not the only on she fooled. There is a strong chance Bear's mother was treated with frontline multiple times while pregnant and there is a question of the use of goat wormer vs. dog wormer on the pups. It is also suspected that several of the other pups in the litter had missing toes and kinked tails. One other pup was also deaf.

I extensively interviewed this breeder and even had a recommendation from another breeder for her. Goes to show you what a crap shoot this can be...
 

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I didnt read your other post sorry - but before popping full of drugs to try to treat possible things, have you seem a neurologist? I would STRONGLY recommend a board certified specialist as your next step. Unexplained neurological symptoms are something beyond the scope of a general practitioner. Just like in human medicine, we see a GP for wellness exams and really a specialist for most other ailments. Vet medicine should really be no different.

I would be concerned about toxin, birth defect, even some kind of tumor affecting the central nervous system.

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Discussion Starter #5
I didnt read your other post sorry - but before popping full of drugs to try to treat possible things, have you seem a neurologist? I would STRONGLY recommend a board certified specialist as your next step. Unexplained neurological symptoms are something beyond the scope of a general practitioner. Just like in human medicine, we see a GP for wellness exams and really a specialist for most other ailments. Vet medicine should really be no different.

I would be concerned about toxin, birth defect, even some kind of tumor affecting the central nervous system.

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Thank you for linking the other thread.

Yes, she is seeing a neurologist at the University of Florida's vet school. In fact, she is has had the dubious distinction of being the grand rounds special case. :( It is a puzzling case.

I am concerned about birth defects from toxins. Too bad I have no way of really knowing if she was from the exposed litter.
 

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This has a familiar ring to it as gsdlover91 pup Akira, without going into detail and out of respect to noted, I won't post the links, but if search her forum name and call up her threads (there's a 122:eek::);) - scroll backwards to dates noted below) there are a few in the health and sadly the loving memory forums - I have provided the range of dates for you to search

Aug. 2012 thru Oct. 2012
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Oh, that was a tough read. :(

Some similar symptoms - it is most likely a congenital issue of some sort.

Too bad they can't talk to us...
 

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Oh, that was a tough read. :(

Some similar symptoms - it is most likely a congenital issue of some sort.

Too bad they can't talk to us...

The one thing that stands out in your other thread was bacterial infection and seizure then at 8 weeks - this would line up with first round of vaccines.

Now I am not saying the vaccine induced, but rather a contaminated batch. Done by breeder or vet and can you find out the batch number/manufacturer (drug company) and contact THEM to see if it was recalled.

Another thing is the adjuvant aluminum, if bacterial contamination piggybacked aluminum, and since aluminum has the ability to pass the blood brain barrier, perhaps this is your culprit.

There is also the possibility as you noted about frontline during gestation - "epigenetics" and of course the trifexis

You can also look into magnesium deficiency - although blood magnesium is not sufficient...I cannot exactly remember, I think it's called an ionic-magnesium test

Amino acids for detox, natural B-complex (b3 is also anti-bacterial, B6, B12 for neuro/nerve protection), detox aluminum

Early kidney problems/warning?
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Hummm, good ideas...

Can't get the vaccine info. The breeder is MIA and I never was able to get any paperwork from her.

I'll have to check out the aluminum angle.

No sure if this is a warning or not, but she was very hard to housebreak. Several reasons:
1) She was so sick at first that we had to keep her in the house in an x-pen. She was peeing so frequently and without warning that we were forced to pp-pad the pen. Therefore her 1st experience was to pee in the house.
2) Her bladder was undersized for her age (not uncommon in both people and animals). We had her on a frequent potty schedule, but sometimes that wasn't even enough. Her only indication was a tiny whine a nano second before peeing.
3) Once she was better, she was crate trained like all my dogs have been. She never had a issue with using her crate as a toilet; nor was she very fastidious about her leavings. I suspect she spent a lot of time in a dirty pen before we got her and was used to it.

She finally housebroke at around 4 months. Funny thing is she now has the largest bladder holding capacity I've ever seen on a dog!
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I was already wanting to add b-complex to her diet. I think I'll supplement with some mag rich foods too.
 

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You might try contacting Carmen (Carmspack) on this board about supplements and suggestions.

I hope they figure out what's going on. Doesn't phenobarbital often cause ataxia?
 

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Discussion Starter #12
snip.... Doesn't phenobarbital often cause ataxia?
Yep. They were more concerned about progressively frequent seizures when she started it.

Prior to this last episode, there was never any post "seizure" axatia that lasted longer than 12 hours, most times it was less than that. She always returned to a normal gait.

The fact that she didn't return to normal this time is what made them rule out epilepsy.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
An update:
Bear is still not able to walk on her own. She will lurch upright and complete a few stumbling steps before falling. She does better with some support. She is able to urinate and defecate by herself; she's adapted to a belly down pee that is very effective and neat on wood chips!

Bear is being weaned off the pheno; Sunday night will be her last dose.
This morning I started her on prednisone 30mg (3 week dose including taper) and clindamycin at a whopping 450mg 2x daily! She will also be getting doxy as soon as it arrives from the compounding pharmacy (not sure what dose). I have also added a multi-vitamin, probiotics and CoQ10.

The thought is to reduce any spinal cord inflammation and/or infection. Beyond that there is no plan.

We are not sure if she will walk again; if she does not show significant improvement soon we may be faced with a very painful decision.

This sucks.
 

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I don't have a clue on this one which seems to be some neurologic damage.

On the "after the seizure' thread I am offering some anti seizure homeopathic medicine which was given to me by someone who had a dog with epileptic seizures , under holistic vet treatment , that passed away - age and other issue . Apparently the Vet Select Nuroplex Formula From AllergicPet.com was effective . Two bottles of tablets and the liquid sealed /unopened , on bottle of tablets with about 1/3 remaining.

???? Not charging for them . The person that gave them to me knew I would find someone needing them , just would appreciate reimbursement for shipping.

I don't know if they would be of any use to your case . I would look to Gator's suggestions , which can't harm, until you find out what is going on , and then take the best course of action

keep coming back and editing --- the only time I saw something like this was a dog who was "water drunk" massive loss of electrolytes due to gorging with water after hard physical work in heat --
 

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My friend's dog had this reaction to pheno and has been off of it for about a week and is just now able to fully use his legs again.

Do you have a harness? This harness was a lifesaver for her dog: Ruffwear Web Master? - Supportive, Multi-Use Dog Harness

I would have it express shipped to you unless you can find it locally.
 

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Not water drunk -- forgot about the littermates having missing toes and kinked tails.
When heatguard first came out , I personally know of several breeders who used it and had "monster" litters, mummified, or gel blobs or disformed . This is first -- must have been modified since . Still I will not use these preventive products - a risk benefits decision .

There is a high likelihood that the dog came into contact with some toxins while pups in fetal development -- look in to teratogenic effects -- which could be alchohol for humans as an example and something as common as Roundup - banned in Toronto / Ontario? - phased out - glycophosphate heribicides Other Studies Showing Malformations from Glyphosate and Roundup Exposure Paganelli et al.’s study was one among several to find malformations from glyphosate and Roundup exposure. Jayawardena et al. (2010) found nearly 60% malformations in tadpoles of the tree frog Polypedates cruciger treated with an environmentally relevant concentration of 1 ppm Roundup. Effects included kyphosis, scoliosis, and edema [2]. Relyea (2012) found that environmentally relevant concentrations of Roundup induced relatively deeper tails similar to the adaptive changes caused by the presence of a predator in the tadpoles of the wood frog (Rana sylvatica or Lithobates sylvaticus) and leopard frog (R. pipiens or L. pipiens) [3]. A study on tadpoles of Scinax nasicus (Lajmanovich et al., 2005) found that exposure to glyphosate herbicide caused craniofacial and mouth deformities, eye abnormalities and bent, curved tails, as well as mortality. Malformations and mortality increased with dose and time of exposure. A 2-day exposure to 3.07 mg/l glyphosate herbicide caused only 10% mortality but caused malformations in 55% of the test animals [4]. Malformations have also been found in mammals treated with glyphosate herbicides. A toxicological study by Dallegrave et al. (2003) found that the offspring of pregnant rats dosed with 500, 750 and 1000mg/kg Roundup on days 6–15 after fertilisation had increased skeletal abnormalities, including at doses that were not maternally toxic. Malformations consisted of the absence of bones or parts of bones, shortened and bent bones, asymmetry, fusions, and clefts. The percentage of altered foetuses increased with dose. The authors concluded that the formulated product was more toxic than the technical glyphosate evaluated by the World Health Organisation [5] and tested in the industry-sponsored teratogenicity studies described in Germany’s 1998 draft assessment report on glyphosate.

------------- male sperm not exempt
 

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I'm so sorry about your pup. It definitely looks like some sort of neurologic issue. Just a shot in the dark, but your dog doesn't eat things out in the yard, does he? We had one that was a grazer, and when we moved to a new house, she apparently was eating a plant that was toxic and was planted by the builder. She started with seizures suddenly.
 

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Have you or have you not had her checked for something like a brain tumor? That's always the first thing I think of- I guess cancer just scares me. I would want to have that ruled out right away- even if is uncommon for her age. It sounds like there is a good possibility of a birth defect as well, sadly, if others in the litter have issues. I am so sorry you're going through this. She really is a beautiful puppy. I hope you can get to the root of this.
 
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