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Discussion Starter #81
Herding sheep, picking something up off the floor, going outside to defecate, not barking at things we deem inappropriate, walking politely on a leash; these are all behaviors that are shaped against a dog's will through coercion.
How unfortunate that you are apparently unaware of non-coercive methods of dog training. As for sheep herding, this is instinctive behavior that dogs with the genetics for it do joyfully and willingly. We shape that behavior through training but we don't force the dog to herd, as anyone who has trained sheep herding dogs knows.

Yes, being a military or LE dog does carry some inherent risk. So does riding in the car, crossing the street, going hiking, dock diving, doing agility, hunting, retrieving, playing 2 ball, going into the back yard where the pond is located. All these activities include risk.
Comparing what war dogs risk and what many suffer to the risk of crossing the street is obscene. No further comment is needed.

I would like to discourage people from armchair handling a K9. Unless you have been there and done that, and you have all the information at hand that the handler used to make the decision to use or not use their K9 in some capacity, you really have no business throwing stones. Nor do you have a frame of reference for reasonable behavior on the part of a K9 handler.
Sorry, David, wrong country. This is America, where we have not only the freedom but the obligation to question those in authority, including K9 handlers, when things don't seem right. Today is an especially good day to think about how important our freedoms and obligations are.

BTW David, why in earth did you agree to be a moderator when this means you have to be exposed to viewpoints you disagree with, which is something you seem to be unable to tolerate? This is not the first time you've told people not to say things you disagree with. The whole point of a forum is to present information and different viewpoints,

Your post has been helpful in one respect though. It's helped me understand something. The casual attitudes that, heck, we force dogs to do everything so it's no big deal to force them to be war dogs, and besides, what's the difference between crossing the street and living in a war zone, it's all risky--these attitudes make it totally clear why so many of these dogs are treated so badly.

Even if we support the use of war dogs in some circumstances, we should never be comfortable with it.
 

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I guess persuasion would be a better term. Coercion speaks of force, which is not always the case. We effect the feelings of the dog which in turn effects their behavior in a way we desire. And I never said a dog couldn't love it's job, just that it didn't choose it out of free will.

You can certainly question anything. It's important to remember your frame of reference. Having been part of several investigations involving dog teams, there is an incredible amount of time spent educating parties on the behavior of dog teams and how they make decisions. Typically this process takes days before a panel can grasp how a seemingly simple situation can present itself from the perspective of the handler. That is how a jury or panel looks at this type of situation, from the perspective of each party involved.

The only person I have specifically told not to say something is you. You were putting words in my mouth, quoting me out of context and eluding to my feelings.

My statement above is simply to discourage others from jumping on the bash cops type mentality an to consider that without all the information and the right perspective, you can't really judge something fairly. This was basically a response to your comment about cops sending dogs into dangerous situations without provocation. I am paraphrasing here, but that is basically what I got from your statement.
 

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You know, I have a nearly 13 y/o dog who put me before herself for the better part of an 11 year career as a medical service dog. And I can say with near certainty that as much capacity as a dog has to make a choice like that, she made it in spades. Complete with jumping out the window of an RV in the pitch dark when she had already begun to lose her eyesight. She did that because I was out there and she alerted and intended to finish her alert and task jumping blindly into the dark from way higher than was safe esp at her then age. She did not hesitate a little. She never hesitated to do ANYtHING for me no matter the cost to herself. I did not compell her to do that. That is who she is.

And she is almost 13 now and lots of stuff going wrong and I am sitting in the waiting room at the referral hospital gonna leave here a thousand dollars lighter but there is nothing I wouldn't do for her either. I try all the time to pay her back for everything she did for me. I bet the MWD handlers feel the same and do the same when they can. To suggest otherwise is beyond insulting

Her job wasn't as dangerous for sure. But she made sacrifices for her work, and she did so because it was her calling and all she ever wanted to do

I'm REALLY way behind on this thread but I'm replying to this, in agreement.
I think dogs are pretty selfless, exactly because they have no concept of "identity/self" to be selfish. I've only ever owned working breeds, and believe it's true in their case--They just want to please us, help us, do things with us, BE with us.

I think MWDs were and are happy to do their jobs. They are loved by and love their handlers (mostly), and in the case of the film, at least one dog under fire and while injured, pulled his handler to safety- obviously having some concept of the dire nature of their position. They certainly understand the concept of danger, look at how many dogs have saved people from burning buildings, or many other things dogs have heroically done for us their family.

David knows this better than most, as he had an incredible partnership with Fama.
We (the forum in general) didn't, Jonrob. You didn't either.

Unless we were in his situation deployed in action with a dog, none of us can truly understand how vital it is for a dog and it's handler and everyone even remotely connected with the scene, to do the job right, or people die. That is a bond that few people really get, although some of us have had dogs do heroic things for us. I absolutely think if the dogs were given a choice, they would still decide to do the jobs we gave them.
 

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I think that we sometimes forget that domesticated dogs were developed and manipulated for our benefit and use. I love my dogs, but at the end of the day they are dogs. If the use of dogs in the military, law enforcement or private sector to protect, detect or deter helps preserve human life, well, that is imo necessary. I absolutely believe that we have a responsibility to treat ALL the creatures in our care with the utmost respect, but I also think that we need to stop treating them like humans. Dogs do not perceive things the same way we do and to suggest otherwise is insulting to them.
We have seen ample evidence that dogs of any breed will run headlong into danger to assist the humans they adore. Of their own free will. No training required.

Countless stories of dogs going above and beyond to return to, protect and defend those they love with no regard for their own safety. They do it because they can.


The war dogs left behind were a clear tragedy, one that we learned from at huge cost to the dogs and the men who had to leave them! Their story should be told and studied, being careful not to tar everyone with the same brush.
No one made the same mistake again, any mistakes following that were new ones that taught new lessons. As humans we only learn from our mistakes. It is impossible to foretell every situation and all we can ever do is use past history and our best judgement to go forward.
 

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You know, I have a nearly 13 y/o dog who put me before herself for the better part of an 11 year career as a medical service dog. And I can say with near certainty that as much capacity as a dog has to make a choice like that, she made it in spades. Complete with jumping out the window of an RV in the pitch dark when she had already begun to lose her eyesight. She did that because I was out there and she alerted and intended to finish her alert and task jumping blindly into the dark from way higher than was safe esp at her then age. She did not hesitate a little. She never hesitated to do ANYtHING for me no matter the cost to herself. I did not compell her to do that. That is who she is.

And she is almost 13 now and lots of stuff going wrong and I am sitting in the waiting room at the referral hospital gonna leave here a thousand dollars lighter but there is nothing I wouldn't do for her either. I try all the time to pay her back for everything she did for me. I bet the MWD handlers feel the same and do the same when they can. To suggest otherwise is beyond insulting

Her job wasn't as dangerous for sure. But she made sacrifices for her work, and she did so because it was her calling and all she ever wanted to do

I'm REALLY way behind on this thread but I'm replying to this, in agreement.
I think dogs are pretty selfless, exactly because they have no concept of "identity/self" to be selfish. I've only ever owned working breeds, and believe it's true in their case--They just want to please us, help us, do things with us, BE with us.

I think MWDs were and are happy to do their jobs. They are loved by and love their handlers (mostly), and in the case of the film, at least one dog under fire and while injured, pulled his handler to safety- obviously having some concept of the dire nature of their position. They certainly understand the concept of danger, look at how many dogs have saved people from burning buildings, or many other things dogs have heroically done for us their family.

David knows this better than most, as he had an incredible partnership with Fama.
We (the forum in general) didn't, Jonrob. You didn't either.

Unless we were in his situation deployed in action with a dog, none of us can truly understand how vital it is for a dog and it's handler and everyone even remotely connected with the scene, to do the job right, or people die. That is a bond that few people really get, although some of us have had dogs do heroic things for us. I absolutely think if the dogs were given a choice, they would still decide to do the jobs we gave them.
There is no doubt that a MWD loves the work. They don't have a sense of duty that can be called upon to motivate them to do something difficult. Bite work is one thing, but tracking or detection is work that they need to love. If they don't want to work, you really can't make them. They will run around, but they won't search.

There is a reason bomb dogs, in particular, have to have off the charts hunt drive. Imagine running around, breathing through your nose, actively searching, with your respiration rate at 3-5 times normal, for miles. Then searching 20 buildings, then searching the entire route back to the trucks or birds or safety.

Every day for a year.

I know that Fama just wanted to do whatever I was doing. She would work all day and/or night, or chill on my bed and play Skyrim. As long as it wasn't raining, she was always ready to go.
 

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Discussion Starter #90
I never said a dog couldn't love it's job, just that it didn't choose it out of free will.
If you ever get any experience with sheep herding dogs with the right genetics you will learn that they ecstatically choose their herding jobs out of free will.

Having been part of several investigations involving dog teams, there is an incredible amount of time spent educating parties on the behavior of dog teams and how they make decisions. Typically this process takes days before a panel can grasp how a seemingly simple situation can present itself from the perspective of the handler.
"Several" investigations? That's it? You have no idea how most investigations are conducted. Given the atrocities involving dogs and people that regularly surface in the media, it's no wonder body cams are increasingly becoming required for police officers. They often show that the officer did right BTW. But without a public outcry, there often is no investigation or only a sham investigation. And this isn't cop bashing. My grandfather and great grandfather were both police officers. Nothing infuriated my grandfather more than bad behavior by cops, and if body cams had been around in his day he would have moved heaven and earth to require them in his department.

And, yeah, when I read about a retired police K9 living in a filthy hellhole behind a sheriff's house while the sheriff decides when he's going to shoot him, I'll question that.

When I read about a police K9 officer whose backyard has the buried bodies of his three former police K9s that were shot to death, yeah, I'll question that.

When I read about a police K9 officer who deliberately left his K9 in his car with the AC running while he spent an hour in the shooting range, never once checked on the dog, and finally finished up at the shooting range and found his dog dead of heatstroke because the AC failed, yeah, I'll question that.

When I read about police sending a police K9 after some mope of a car thief who was running away and, as the police admitted, was not threatening anyone, and the dog is shot to death, yeah, I'll question that.

You were putting words in my mouth, quoting me out of context and eluding to my feelings.
Nope. The only feeling I mentioned was your apparent strong loyalty to the military which has been very good to you. If you do not in fact feel this loyalty, you are free to make that clear. I have not put words in your mouth or quoted you out of context. People do this with my posts all the time BTW, and I don't even bother to respond. I certainly don't tell them not to do this or not to say anything else. If they want to misrepresent things, fine.

But David, this complaint from you is a bit odd. In one of your posts, you falsely claimed that I said you lied. I didn't. I have questioned some statements in your posts that seem to be factually incorrect. That doesn't mean you lied. You could be simply misinformed or careless about checking your facts. I don't care what the reason is. I just want correct information.

Here's my all-time favorite from you, David. I never posted a single negative word about your dog Fama. This is what I did post about her:

Fama was a truly awesome dog. My girlfriend and I loved your stories about her. They made us laugh, and, well, when we heard she had crossed over, that made us cry. And we are not exactly the weepy type.

When you do write your book about her, we will be the first to buy it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Winners View Post
"Straight out of the Army, Fama would wade through a screaming kindergarten class on their knees in a loud gymnasium without so much as a raised lip or single sign of stress. You put her in a room of adults talking loudly and she was immediately looking for someone to bite."

That's the kid gene. God bless that dog. And you.
I know you read my post because you responded (appropriately) to it. Then you decided it was intolerable that I disagreed with you and some other posters, and this became your response:

You think I had a terrible family dog because she was possessive, aggressive and had the inclination to bite things and people.

Just don't bash my dog because you don't understand her. It's offensive.
I figure there's no way to have any kind of rational conversation with someone who flies off the handle like this when someone compliments his dog. Or with his fan club. And I have dogs to train. So this is my last post on this for a while. I will post factual and legal MWD updates as I find them.
 

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How unfortunate that you are apparently unaware of non-coercive methods of dog training. As for sheep herding, this is instinctive behavior that dogs with the genetics for it do joyfully and willingly. We shape that behavior through training but we don't force the dog to herd, as anyone who has trained sheep herding dogs knows.
If you ever get any experience with sheep herding dogs with the right genetics you will learn that they ecstatically choose their herding jobs out of free will.
The term in herding is "pressure", which can mean anything from a raised eyebrow to a very real correction. Herding inserts control on the dog, essentially interrupting the canine prey cycle and re-wiring the end result.

Eye, Stalk, Chase, Kill, Eat - becomes - Eye, Stalk, Herding.

Even the most talented and biddable dogs are put under a considerable amount of pressure over the course of learning. Through deliberate breeding, we have shaped the gripping behavior of some dogs, and we as handlers then have to lay down rules regarding when it's ok to grip (bite), where on the animal is ok to grip (bite), and when it is not ok to put teeth anywhere near the animal.

The innate prey cycle has none of those rules. Those are human rules, and the dog has to acquiesce if it is going to be useful. While it is correct that you cannot force any dog to herd, it is equally correct to say that we impose our will on them, to accomplish tasks of our design, according to our rules - not theirs.
 

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If you ever get any experience with sheep herding dogs with the right genetics you will learn that they ecstatically choose their herding jobs out of free will.

"Several" investigations? That's it? You have no idea how most investigations are conducted. Given the atrocities involving dogs and people that regularly surface in the media, it's no wonder body cams are increasingly becoming required for police officers. They often show that the officer did right BTW. But without a public outcry, there often is no investigation or only a sham investigation. And this isn't cop bashing. My grandfather and great grandfather were both police officers. Nothing infuriated my grandfather more than bad behavior by cops, and if body cams had been around in his day he would have moved heaven and earth to require them in his department.

And, yeah, when I read about a retired police K9 living in a filthy hellhole behind a sheriff's house while the sheriff decides when he's going to shoot him, I'll question that.

When I read about a police K9 officer whose backyard has the buried bodies of his three former police K9s that were shot to death, yeah, I'll question that.

When I read about a police K9 officer who deliberately left his K9 in his car with the AC running while he spent an hour in the shooting range, never once checked on the dog, and finally finished up at the shooting range and found his dog dead of heatstroke because the AC failed, yeah, I'll question that.

When I read about police sending a police K9 after some mope of a car thief who was running away and, as the police admitted, was not threatening anyone, and the dog is shot to death, yeah, I'll question that.

Nope. The only feeling I mentioned was your apparent strong loyalty to the military which has been very good to you. If you do not in fact feel this loyalty, you are free to make that clear. I have not put words in your mouth or quoted you out of context. People do this with my posts all the time BTW, and I don't even bother to respond. I certainly don't tell them not to do this or not to say anything else. If they want to misrepresent things, fine.

But David, this complaint from you is a bit odd. In one of your posts, you falsely claimed that I said you lied. I didn't. I have questioned some statements in your posts that seem to be factually incorrect. That doesn't mean you lied. You could be simply misinformed or careless about checking your facts. I don't care what the reason is. I just want correct information.

Here's my all-time favorite from you, David. I never posted a single negative word about your dog Fama. This is what I did post about her:

I know you read my post because you responded (appropriately) to it. Then you decided it was intolerable that I disagreed with you and some other posters, and this became your response:



I figure there's no way to have any kind of rational conversation with someone who flies off the handle like this when someone compliments his dog. Or with his fan club. And I have dogs to train. So this is my last post on this for a while. I will post factual and legal MWD updates as I find them.
Thank you
 

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I never said a dog couldn't love it's job, just that it didn't choose it out of free will.
If you ever get any experience with sheep herding dogs with the right genetics you will learn that they ecstatically choose their herding jobs out of free will.

Having been part of several investigations involving dog teams, there is an incredible amount of time spent educating parties on the behavior of dog teams and how they make decisions. Typically this process takes days before a panel can grasp how a seemingly simple situation can present itself from the perspective of the handler.
"Several" investigations? That's it? You have no idea how most investigations are conducted. Given the atrocities involving dogs and people that regularly surface in the media, it's no wonder body cams are increasingly becoming required for police officers. They often show that the officer did right BTW. But without a public outcry, there often is no investigation or only a sham investigation. And this isn't cop bashing. My grandfather and great grandfather were both police officers. Nothing infuriated my grandfather more than bad behavior by cops, and if body cams had been around in his day he would have moved heaven and earth to require them in his department.

And, yeah, when I read about a retired police K9 living in a filthy hellhole behind a sheriff's house while the sheriff decides when he's going to shoot him, I'll question that.

When I read about a police K9 officer whose backyard has the buried bodies of his three former police K9s that were shot to death, yeah, I'll question that.

When I read about a police K9 officer who deliberately left his K9 in his car with the AC running while he spent an hour in the shooting range, never once checked on the dog, and finally finished up at the shooting range and found his dog dead of heatstroke because the AC failed, yeah, I'll question that.

When I read about police sending a police K9 after some mope of a car thief who was running away and, as the police admitted, was not threatening anyone, and the dog is shot to death, yeah, I'll question that.

You were putting words in my mouth, quoting me out of context and eluding to my feelings.
Nope. The only feeling I mentioned was your apparent strong loyalty to the military which has been very good to you. If you do not in fact feel this loyalty, you are free to make that clear. I have not put words in your mouth or quoted you out of context. People do this with my posts all the time BTW, and I don't even bother to respond. I certainly don't tell them not to do this or not to say anything else. If they want to misrepresent things, fine.

But David, this complaint from you is a bit odd. In one of your posts, you falsely claimed that I said you lied. I didn't. I have questioned some statements in your posts that seem to be factually incorrect. That doesn't mean you lied. You could be simply misinformed or careless about checking your facts. I don't care what the reason is. I just want correct information.

Here's my all-time favorite from you, David. I never posted a single negative word about your dog Fama. This is what I did post about her:

Fama was a truly awesome dog. My girlfriend and I loved your stories about her. They made us laugh, and, well, when we heard she had crossed over, that made us cry. And we are not exactly the weepy type.

When you do write your book about her, we will be the first to buy it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Winners View Post
"Straight out of the Army, Fama would wade through a screaming kindergarten class on their knees in a loud gymnasium without so much as a raised lip or single sign of stress. You put her in a room of adults talking loudly and she was immediately looking for someone to bite."

That's the kid gene. God bless that dog. And you.
I know you read my post because you responded (appropriately) to it. Then you decided it was intolerable that I disagreed with you and some other posters, and this became your response:

You think I had a terrible family dog because she was possessive, aggressive and had the inclination to bite things and people.

Just don't bash my dog because you don't understand her. It's offensive.
I figure there's no way to have any kind of rational conversation with someone who flies off the handle like this when someone compliments his dog. Or with his fan club. And I have dogs to train. So this is my last post on this for a while. I will post factual and legal MWD updates as I find them.
Well here is a striking difference. You say "when I read about" over and over. So basically you read about this stuff on the internet. Others on this thread actually handled and trained MWDs. Big difference. One of you knows what you are talking about and the other one just read about some stuff on the internet.

I asked you for specifics a long time ago and you haven't responded. Besides insulting a MED handler who loved and cared for his dog in her retirement and worjed hard to get her back.. what have YOU done to benefit these dogs JonRob?

And I'd still like to know your actual proof of cops sending their dogs to die for no reason.

And if that happened one time, legitimately, that warrants belittling every police k9 handler out there?? I don't think so.
 

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Wait a minute you said the herding dogs ecstatically choose their jobs of free will...

I thought your whole position was that is was arrogamt to think dogs could choose or that we could tell if they had chosen??? Help me out here
 

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How unfortunate that you are apparently unaware of non-coercive methods of dog training. As for sheep herding, this is instinctive behavior that dogs with the genetics for it do joyfully and willingly. We shape that behavior through training but we don't force the dog to herd, as anyone who has trained sheep herding dogs knows.

Comparing what war dogs risk and what many suffer to the risk of crossing the street is obscene. No further comment is needed.

Sorry, David, wrong country. This is America, where we have not only the freedom but the obligation to question those in authority, including K9 handlers, when things don't seem right. Today is an especially good day to think about how important our freedoms and obligations are.

BTW David, why in earth did you agree to be a moderator when this means you have to be exposed to viewpoints you disagree with, which is something you seem to be unable to tolerate? This is not the first time you've told people not to say things you disagree with. The whole point of a forum is to present information and different viewpoints,

Your post has been helpful in one respect though. It's helped me understand something. The casual attitudes that, heck, we force dogs to do everything so it's no big deal to force them to be war dogs, and besides, what's the difference between crossing the street and living in a war zone, it's all risky--these attitudes make it totally clear why so many of these dogs are treated so badly.

Even if we support the use of war dogs in some circumstances, we should never be comfortable with it.
As I understand it, the moderators in these forums can boot you at will for being disruptive and any number of reasons. At the very least, they can censor you. I've had my words changed. The fact that you're still here to write out your responses, proves that he (and other moderators) is "tolerating" your views. So your point that he "is unable to tolerate" is moot.

I don't have a horse in this race. I don't know DW (nor you) from boo. But all I (and everyone else in here) see is you being the "irrational" one. You gotta let it go, kid. Ten pages of this s is enough. You started this thread...that was a good thing. Then it took a turn for the worse when you decided to attack someone that you misread/misunderstood. Don't serve your ego anymore, let it go.
 

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How unfortunate that you are apparently unaware of non-coercive methods of dog training. As for sheep herding, this is instinctive behavior that dogs with the genetics for it do joyfully and willingly. We shape that behavior through training but we don't force the dog to herd, as anyone who has trained sheep herding dogs knows.

Comparing what war dogs risk and what many suffer to the risk of crossing the street is obscene. No further comment is needed.

Sorry, David, wrong country. This is America, where we have not only the freedom but the obligation to question those in authority, including K9 handlers, when things don't seem right. Today is an especially good day to think about how important our freedoms and obligations are.

BTW David, why in earth did you agree to be a moderator when this means you have to be exposed to viewpoints you disagree with, which is something you seem to be unable to tolerate? This is not the first time you've told people not to say things you disagree with. The whole point of a forum is to present information and different viewpoints,

Your post has been helpful in one respect though. It's helped me understand something. The casual attitudes that, heck, we force dogs to do everything so it's no big deal to force them to be war dogs, and besides, what's the difference between crossing the street and living in a war zone, it's all risky--these attitudes make it totally clear why so many of these dogs are treated so badly.

Even if we support the use of war dogs in some circumstances, we should never be comfortable with it.
As I understand it, the moderators in these forums can boot you at will for being disruptive and any number of reasons. At the very least, they can censor you. I've had my words changed. The fact that you're still here to write out your responses, proves that he (and other moderators) is "tolerating" your views. So your point that he "is unable to tolerate" is moot.

I don't have a horse in this race. I don't know DW (nor you) from boo. But all I (and everyone else in here) see is you being the "irrational" one. You gotta let it go, kid. Ten pages of this s is enough. You started this thread...that was a good thing. Then it took a turn for the worse when you decided to attack someone that you misread/misunderstood. Don't serve your ego anymore, let it go.
Well said!!
 
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