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Discussion Starter #1
So I am looking into vaccine protocols (typical and more minimal) and was looking into my county's rabies laws. So, the dog has to be vaccinated for rabies at 12 weeks so you can license the dog, which is required at 12 weeks. I do not want to give a rabies vaccine around the dog's 5-1 vaccine so the immune system can deal with everything its been given. So, if I do the distemper/parvo combos at 8-11-14 weeks, that means I could maybe do rabies at 16 weeks, but at that point I am behind the curve and have to pay a fine through my county. Not only that, the fee to register an unspayed dog is 2.5 times the cost of a spayed one. So instead of paying $17 total, I have to pay $46 for unspayed, plus $4 fee for registering late. Granted, we are talking $50 instead of $17, but jeez, they sure don't make it easy if you're trying to do right by your dog. As for the spay/neuter, I know there are all types of opinions here, but we will be doing it after she is one per our breeders recommendation (which I 100% agree with). Anyway, anyone else run into any issues like this? Any worry of doing rabies at 16 weeks instead of 12? Separate from other vaccines instead of with??

Thanks guys!
 

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If I had known then what I know now I would have taken the Holistic Approach to the Vaccination Schedule and would have learned more about titer testing. I would recommend doing some reading before vaccinating a puppy that young especially with the rabies shot.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
If I had known then what I know now I would have taken the Holistic Approach to the Vaccination Schedule and would have learned more about titer testing. I would recommend doing some reading before vaccinating a puppy that young especially with the rabies shot.
I so agree. I want to do minimal vaccines and titer when possible. Just got off the phone with my breeder. I wanted to do shots myself but was told I need to let the vet handle it or parvo/distemper warranty is voided. She did also tell us that we are not to do rabies within two weeks of the 5 in 1 as well...
 

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Please do not let your vet give your puppy that toxic cocktail (5 in 1). :surprise:

And NEVER give a Rabies shot at the same time as other vacc's! Dr. Dodds says at least 3 weeks inbetween.

Vaccinations should be separated (see below). It would be like you going into Walgreens and getting a flu shot, a pneumonia shot, a meningitis shot, a chicken pox shot, and a whooping cough shot ALL at one time!!!!!

Research the particular "risks" in your area for certain diseases before throwing ALL of those at your pup. Then make an informed decision on which ones will be beneficial.

Here is Dr. Dodds - Vaccine Protocol.

Updated information from Dr. Dodds:

Per Dr. Dodds: " I made significant and important changes to my vaccination protocol. Previously, I recommended giving the last distemper + parvovirus vaccine at 14-16 weeks of age. Based on the latest research, Dr. Ronald Schultz informed me last week that another parvovirus vaccine needs to be given at 18 weeks old to assure protection against the virulent parvovirus strain 2c. "

VACCINATION PROTOCOL:

9 - 10 weeks of age

Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV
e.g. Merck Nobivac (Intervet Progard) Puppy DPV


14 – 15 weeks of age
Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV


18 weeks of age
Parvovirus only, MLV

Note: New research states that last puppy parvovirus vaccine should be at 18 weeks old.


20 weeks or older, if allowable by law
Rabies – give 3-4 weeks apart from other vaccines


1 year old
Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV



1 year old
Rabies – give 3-4 weeks apart from other vaccines


Canine NON-Core Vaccines: Dr. Jean Dodds' Pet Health Resource Blog | Search results for: core vaccines
"Dr. Dodds considers infectious canine hepatitis (adenovirus-1), canine adenovirus-2, bordetella, canine influenza, canine coronavirus, leptospirosis, and Lyme regional and situational. Please research the prevalence in your area, and discuss it with your veterinarian."

Articles
Vets On Vaccines: Vets On Vaccines - Dogs Naturally Magazine
Leptospirosis Vaccines adverse reaction, Dr. Jordan DVM

Frequently Asked Questions about Titers and Vaccination Protocol by Dr. Dodds
Puppy and Kitten Vaccinations: Timing is critical
Rabies: The Science & the Current Law
Vaccines: When too much of a good thing turns bad
Vaccines: When too much of a good thing turns bad (Part 2)
Avoid Unnecessary Vaccines with Titer Tests (Part 3)

Response: Immune-Mediated Thrombocytopenia Report and Article
Q&A with Dr. Dodds: Is the puppy’s severe physical reaction due to a routine vaccine?
Q&A with Dr. Dodds: What should I do to protect my adult dogs during a parvovirus outbreak?
To Vaccinate or Not to Vaccinate for Infectious Canine Hepatitis?
Q&A with Dr. Dodds: I had a dog who had a bad reaction to the rabies vaccine and now I am concerned about giving it to my other dogs. What should I do?
Q&A with Dr. Dodds: Kennel Cough Complex Vaccines
Yes or No to Snake Vaccines?
Canine Influenza H3N8 Article - Dr. Dodds’ Additions
Clinical Approaches to Managing and Treating Adverse Vaccine Reactions
Dr. Schultz on Lyme Vaccine
Dr. Schultz Update on Leptospirosis Vaccines (2012)
More on Vaccine Titer Testing
Q&A with Dr. Dodds: Newborns and immunity from mothers
Mercury-Induced Inflammation: Yet Another Example of ASIA Syndrome
Canine Non-Core Vaccines
Snapshot of Leptospirosis Strains and Vaccines
Puppy Vaccination Schedule and Socialization: Can they go together?
Kennel Cough Complex: A complicated phrase for the canine common cold
A Pilot Study: Dose Vaccines for Small Dogs
More on Vaccinations & Small Dog Vaccine Study
Canine Influenza H3N2 Outbreak
Immune Disorders and Vaccines
Know Your Bordetella Vaccine


The Purdue Vaccination Studies and Auto-antibodies by Catherine O’Driscoll on April 26, 2011 The Purdue Vaccination Studies and Auto-antibodies - Dogs Naturally Magazine
Taking The Risk Out Of Puppy Shots by Dogs Naturally on July 12, 2011 Taking The Risk Out Of Puppy Shots - Dogs Naturally Magazine
Protecting Your Puppy From Disease: Protecting Your Puppy From Disease - Dogs Naturally Magazine

There is also a 4 part video series on vaccinations by Dr. Ron Schultz and Dr. Karen Becker: https://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2011/05/31/what-your-vet-didnt-tell-you-about-all-those-puppy-and-kitty-vaccines.aspx



Moms :)
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Please do not let your vet give your puppy that toxic cocktail (5 in 1). :surprise:

And NEVER give a Rabies shot at the same time as other vacc's! Dr. Dodds says at least 3 weeks inbetween.

Vaccinations should be separated (see below). It would be like you going into Walgreens and getting a flu shot, a pneumonia shot, a meningitis shot, a chicken pox shot, and a whooping cough shot ALL at one time!!!!!

Research the particular "risks" in your area for certain diseases before throwing ALL of those at your pup. Then make an informed decision on which ones will be beneficial.

Here is Dr. Dodds - Vaccine Protocol.

Updated information from Dr. Dodds:

Per Dr. Dodds: " I made significant and important changes to my vaccination protocol. Previously, I recommended giving the last distemper + parvovirus vaccine at 14-16 weeks of age. Based on the latest research, Dr. Ronald Schultz informed me last week that another parvovirus vaccine needs to be given at 18 weeks old to assure protection against the virulent parvovirus strain 2c. "
[FONT=&quot]
VACCINATION PROTOCOL:

9 - 10 weeks of age

Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV
e.g. Merck Nobivac (Intervet Progard) Puppy DPV


14 – 15 weeks of age
Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV


18 weeks of age
Parvovirus only, MLV

Note: New research states that last puppy parvovirus vaccine should be at 18 weeks old.


20 weeks or older, if allowable by law
Rabies – give 3-4 weeks apart from other vaccines


1 year old
Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV



1 year old
Rabies

:)

I printed out this exact form to discuss with my vet. I don’t disagree with you, on less is better. The breeder does 5 in 1 before pups go home so I can’t do much about that. I’ll be curious what the vet says and if she’s cool with a minimal schedule. I should probably call and discuss with her before I schedule first appointment!

Thanks for linking up those other articles. I will check them out.

Another note, did you do heart worm preventative or just titer every 5 months?
 

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Re doing the rabies yourself -- be careful, as it may be voided as though you didn't give it in the eyes of your local authorities if not given by a vet. That's bad, because then you would have to re-administer it at the vet office (double vaccinate) to comply with the law! Local laws differ on this. In my city, to license the dog and comply with the rabies requirement, the rabies vaccine has to be given by a licensed veterinarian, and they have to note the vial serial number and expiration date on the vaccination certificate. Otherwise the dog is treated as unvaccinated by the authorities.

You cannot titer for HW, and there's no holistic treatment for it that has been clinically shown to be effective. If you're in an area where they exist, you have to be on prevention to be safe. We start them on HW prevention no later than 12 weeks in rescue, but some products are labeled for 9 weeks. Around that point, the maternal protection wears off, and they're vulnerable. You won't know they're heartworm-positive until 6 months after infection, and by that point, you have adult HWs that are too big to kill with a monthly dose of prevention. Now you're looking at a brutal treatment protocol with an arsenic derivative and 3 mo. of crate rest to kill the HWs. See Gatorbytes' thread about what her sweet dog has been through!
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Re doing the rabies yourself -- be careful, as it may be voided as though you didn't give it in the eyes of your local authorities if not given by a vet. That's bad, because then you would have to re-administer it at the vet office (double vaccinate) to comply with the law! Local laws differ on this. In my city, to license the dog and comply with the rabies requirement, the rabies vaccine has to be given by a licensed veterinarian, and they have to note the vial serial number and expiration date on the vaccination certificate. Otherwise the dog is treated as unvaccinated by the authorities.

You cannot titer for HW, and there's no holistic treatment for it that has been clinically shown to be effective. If you're in an area where they exist, you have to be on prevention to be safe. We start them on HW prevention no later than 12 weeks in rescue, but some products are labeled for 9 weeks. Around that point, the maternal protection wears off, and they're vulnerable. You won't know they're heartworm-positive until 6 months after infection, and by that point, you have adult HWs that are too big to kill with a monthly dose of prevention. Now you're looking at a brutal treatment protocol with an arsenic derivative and 3 mo. of crate rest to kill the HWs. See Gatorbytes' thread about what her sweet dog has been through!
I was not planning on doing rabies, as it has to be done by a vet to “count.” Yeah def don’t want her to double dose on that.

As for heart worm, I saw a clinic that does a heart worm test. If it takes 4-6 months to get it, I figured if you tested every 4 you’d be safe. Again, one more chemical that is going in the body. Ugh. Guess I just need to find a vet I trust and go from there!
 

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Nooooo. You're misunderstanding because there's so much false information on the Internet. Heartworm tests are done annually to make sure you haven't had a breakthrough infection (or missed a dose) with a dog kept on monthly prevention.

I work with heartworm-positive dogs constantly in dog rescue. It takes 1 month of missed prevention to get it! ONE!!! The HW meds work retroactively to kill the baby larvae, and there's a small window in which they work before the larvae get too big to kill with prevention. So here's what happens if you wait 4 months to test to see what happens:

Mo. 1 -- infection from a mosquito -- W1 worms start growing
Mo. 2 -- more infection W2 worms start growing
Mo. 3-- more infection W3 worms start growing
Mo. 4 --more infection W4 worms start growing
Test Mo. 4 -- It will test negative. It takes 6-7 months before worms growing in the dog are big enough to produce antigen that the test detects. They're there, just not detectable. So you say "yay, negative," and keep skipping prevention, unaware your dog has them but the tests won't pick them up for a few more months.

We continue getting new worms in months 5-8 -- the class of W5-W8 (Where the number tells us the month it started growing).

Now we retest in month 8, on your proposed program.

Dog has been positive since month 1, but now the W1 and W2 worms are finally old enough to produce antibodies that the test can detect, and now maybe they're even breeding inside your dog. If so, then you have microfilariae circulating in the dog's blood, so you're also infecting all the wild canids (coyotes, foxes) and unprotected pet dogs in your neighborhood, anytime a mosquito bites your dog. Arsenic treatment is unfortunately needed. We also have to put the dog on 30 days of a pretty high dose of antibiotics (!) before we can start HW treatment with the arsenic.

In month 8, W3-W7 aren't yet detectable, but they're in there too. W1-W6 are all now too old to kill with prevention. You've also got some juveniles from W7 worms that aren't big enough to kill with arsenic, but can still be killed with prevention.

Now in mo. 9 or 10, we finally start 2 months of very painful shots that hurt so badly the dog may not be able to stand up the next day after each one. And start crate rest -- the dog can't even be let outside to potty except on leash, as an elevated heartrate could kill the dog. So after blasting the dog with 30 days of antibiotics, we now blast it with arsenic.

So to recap: we've damaged the heart and pulmonary arteries, possibly shortened life span, destroyed gut flora with a long course of abx, injected muscles with arsenic, put the dog through a lot of pain, and subjected it to misery of no exercise or fun for 2 months. Oh, and spent around $1,000. All to avoid a little low-dose heartworm prevention? No way. The chemicals you REALLY want to avoid are the long course of antibiotics and the arsenic needed to treat the HW. That stuff is wicked.
 

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Nooooo. You're misunderstanding because there's so much false information on the Internet. Heartworm tests are done annually to make sure you haven't had a breakthrough infection (or missed a dose) with a dog kept on monthly prevention.

I work with heartworm-positive dogs constantly in dog rescue. It takes 1 month of missed prevention to get it! ONE!!! The HW meds work retroactively to kill the baby larvae, and there's a small window in which they work before the larvae get too big to kill with prevention. So here's what happens if you wait 4 months to test to see what happens:

Mo. 1 -- infection from a mosquito -- W1 worms start growing
Mo. 2 -- more infection W2 worms start growing
Mo. 3-- more infection W3 worms start growing
Mo. 4 --more infection W4 worms start growing
Test Mo. 4 -- It will test negative. It takes 6-7 months before worms growing in the dog are big enough to produce antigen that the test detects. They're there, just not detectable. So you say "yay, negative," and keep skipping prevention, unaware your dog has them but the tests won't pick them up for a few more months.

We continue getting new worms in months 5-8 -- the class of W5-W8 (Where the number tells us the month it started growing).

Now we retest in month 8, on your proposed program.

Dog has been positive since month 1, but now the W1 and W2 worms are finally old enough to produce antibodies that the test can detect, and now maybe they're even breeding inside your dog. If so, then you have microfilariae circulating in the dog's blood, so you're also infecting all the wild canids (coyotes, foxes) and unprotected pet dogs in your neighborhood, anytime a mosquito bites your dog. Arsenic treatment is unfortunately needed. We also have to put the dog on 30 days of a pretty high dose of antibiotics (!) before we can start HW treatment with the arsenic.

In month 8, W3-W7 aren't yet detectable, but they're in there too. W1-W6 are all now too old to kill with prevention. You've also got some juveniles from W7 worms that aren't big enough to kill with arsenic, but can still be killed with prevention.

Now in mo. 9 or 10, we finally start 2 months of very painful shots that hurt so badly the dog may not be able to stand up the next day after each one. And start crate rest -- the dog can't even be let outside to potty except on leash, as an elevated heartrate could kill the dog. So after blasting the dog with 30 days of antibiotics, we now blast it with arsenic.

So to recap: we've damaged the heart and pulmonary arteries, possibly shortened life span, destroyed gut flora with a long course of abx, injected muscles with arsenic, put the dog through a lot of pain, and subjected it to misery of no exercise or fun for 2 months. Oh, and spent around $1,000. All to avoid a little low-dose heartworm prevention? No way. The chemicals you REALLY want to avoid are the long course of antibiotics and the arsenic needed to treat the HW. That stuff is wicked.
Thanks for explaining it so succinctly. I definitely don't want to cause more harm! When do you start heart worm meds? Like at 8 weeks? We live in a place where we will have to treat year round bc of our high temps. Also, any particular brand or does it not matter?
 

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If you're in Arizona, you have a lot of choices, and they all work. It's more complicated on other areas (Gulf Coast) because of an emerging resistant strain, but the Southwest doesn't have it. They're all labeled for puppies, but the minimum age can vary by product. Talk to your vet about your options. There are pill or topical options, and all are prescription only. The only one I personally avoid is Trifexis because a very small number of dogs don't tolerate it and get devastating side effects, and there's no way to know ahead of time if the dog will fall into that group.
 

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I think you are looking at it wrong.

Is it worth it, $4, to wait until you are more comfortable giving a particular vaccine?


In our county, even when they do require rabies vaccines here, they never ask for them when you are licensing, so it is no big deal. At least so far. But if you do not license on time, they charge you double. So your $46 would now be $92. And if you have 4 dogs, that would be $92 x 4, which is a lot more of an incentive to do whatever it takes to get the animals registered on time.
 

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Thanks for explaining it so succinctly. I definitely don't want to cause more harm! When do you start heart worm meds? Like at 8 weeks? We live in a place where we will have to treat year round bc of our high temps. Also, any particular brand or does it not matter?
This is a personal decision that being said this is my so far take on things...

I am a BIG anti vaccine and anti over vaccinating our children and animals...that being said by law in Texas you have to vaccinate against rabies. That being said in Harris county area we should be named "Mosquitoeville" or heartworm breeding of the country. I give heartworm medicine as soon as recommended. Again don't like it either. Might change that if I learn of something safer...love to hear if anyone knows what DOES work in mosquito land that is not harmful and can be given long-term I am all ears!

I do the rabies required by law even though it HAS BEEN PROVEN that they actually last 10 years! They could last longer they just stopped the study! Done at Texas A&M if I remember correctly. So they changed it to 1 shot 4 months then 1 before the year expires from the 1st shot then every 3 years which is still LUXURIOUS considering it has been PROVEN! I guess not enough people threw a fit! Laws do not require heartworm prevention but it is something I won't do without even when I am broke. Only vaccines I use only when they are pups are distemper and parvo. Don't like doing it and might find with further research I am wrong. I am thankful I do not live in an uneducated state like California (don't get me wrong beautiful state) but any state requiring people to vaccinate their children have NOT really looked into the vaccines well enough or just don't care about their children or just believe anything they hear!

I wish I new what I know now when my children where born if I did not one of them would have a single vaccine PERIOD.

You wouldn't believe how many people in Texas think you HAVE to vaccinate your child or you are a horrible person for not vaccinating. Have had friends get mad at me for years and they finally started reading up on them and now they are with me on the not vaccinating.

Also I hate giving my beautiful dogs (yes my mutts) any poisons but at the same time I have tried and still use natural means for fleas but it is not enough here all year long and have to do something because I cannot risk the bites on my family much less my husband who has been fighting cancer for over 17 years and had it come back 5 times!

We all have to live with our choices and sometimes it is the lesser of 2 evils....
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I think you are looking at it wrong.

Is it worth it, $4, to wait until you are more comfortable giving a particular vaccine?


In our county, even when they do require rabies vaccines here, they never ask for them when you are licensing, so it is no big deal. At least so far. But if you do not license on time, they charge you double. So your $46 would now be $92. And if you have 4 dogs, that would be $92 x 4, which is a lot more of an incentive to do whatever it takes to get the animals registered on time.
Yes definitely worth $4 to wait. That sucks that yours doubles!
 

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We all have to live with our choices and sometimes it is the lesser of 2 evils....
Definitely agree with this. Looking forward to working with the vet and discussing all of our options. She’s cool and open to the new research so I’m thankful for that.
 

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Yes definitely worth $4 to wait. That sucks that yours doubles!
Yes, but I cannot complain. The way it works here is that it is $12 for a license regardless of the state of the canine reproductive system. I have 1 neutered dog and 1 intact dog. I also have 13 bitches and only 1 is altered.

This would be $180 to license them all on time. And $360 if I was late. But by having a kennel license, the cost is $60 and that provides you with 5 tags. Extra tags, in sequence cost $1 each, so I can license them all properly for $70. And if I was late it would be $140. I do have a vendor's license -- one time fee of $25. And I have to file every six months, and if I had any sales pay 6.75% sales tax. Still, it is a lot cheaper than buying the licenses individually.
 

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My vet gives the 5-way. I take them in before they are 8 weeks old, usually a little over 7 weeks for the first shots. Then at 11 weeks, the five way, and then at 16 weeks they get the five-way and rabies. They get strongid (wormer) at these visits as well, whether they need it or not.

I don't do heartworm. I've tested them here and there, and so far we've always been negative. I worry about it, but I worry more putting a preventative insecticide into my dog all the time. I live in the north where mosquitoes come in the warm months. But are completely killed off in the winter months.

I used to put all the pesticides in my dogs, for fleas and ticks and heartworms. But I dunno, I think that either way we will kick ourselves. If we don't give the preventative to prevent a possible issue, and they get that issue; or if we do give the preventative and they develop some other issue that might have been caused by a weakened immune system or by the chemicals themselves. Guess I prefer to be at fault for not giving something to prevent an issue, than for causing issues with preventative measures. Like spaying. If my bitch gets pyro or breast cancer, I will deal with it a lot better than losing a young dog to something that early spay/neuter is known to cause.
 

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I've heard horror stories of dogs who were bitten or attacked by wild animals before they had a rabies vaccination or after rabies was officially expired. Could mean a dead dog. Or a very long and expensive, stressful quarantine. I wouldn't gamble when it come to the rabies vaccine.

If you find a dead bat in your home and it tests positive for rabies, that's all it would take.
 

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I've heard horror stories of dogs who were bitten or attacked by wild animals before they had a rabies vaccination or after rabies was officially expired. Could mean a dead dog. Or a very long and expensive, stressful quarantine. I wouldn't gamble when it come to the rabies vaccine.

If you find a dead bat in your home and it tests positive for rabies, that's all it would take.
I am gambling right now with this and two of my girls.

I had the vet out in July to shoot up 8 or 9 of my critters. And it would have been nothing to bring Babs out who was due in February, and Jenna who was due in August. But they are 12 years old. If they live to be 13, those rabies shots last more than 3 years. It's more like 5-7 and maybe even more.

But let's go a bit further. If I find a dead bat or a dead rat, I am going to throw it away and I won't think another thing of it. I am not going to send it off for testing. First of all, in our part of Ohio, we find a skunk or a squirrel or a coon maybe once a year, maybe once in two years with rabies. So if there is a bat or rat in my house and it dies from poison or from the dogs, chances are, it won't be rabid.

But let's go farther. I can die of rabies. A rat or bat can bite ME, too. But I am not vaccinated. And there is a reason for that. The vaccine for that, at least in humans, can have some pretty nasty side-effects. So, I am not going to WalMart and getting my rabies vaccine. In fact, I was reading what they offer, and they have Whooping Cough, and Pnumonia, and Chicken Pox, and Influenza -- no rabies. Obviously, they aren't so fussed that I will be bitten by a rat or a bat or a mouse or a fox or a raccoon or a skunk. True, I man not going to chase after them and get myself bitten. Probably. I have chased a few mice. Be that as it may be. Jenna and Babs aren't chasing them down either.

I think that between the odds, with how few critters have an issue in this part of the country -- not unheard of, really uncommon, and the fact that they have been vaccinated and the shots last longer than 3 years, I think we are ok. But add to that the way the law reads here. It is mandatory if the county calls for it. If the dog bites someone and has never been vaccinated the dog will be euthanized and the head sent off for testing. If the dog has been vaccinated, then there will be a quarantine. If the dog's vaccination is expired, then they may quarantined off-site, and for longer than the 10 days that a vaccinated (current) dog will go through (usually at home).

I'll take my chances. The girls are 12. If I find a dead bat or rat into the garbage it goes, or, over the bank.
 

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Rabies is not that uncommon in bats, and if the bat is up during the day and flying around in the house, there's an even greater chance the animal is sick. When I was a kid my friend's family took in a litter of baby raccoons, and the raccoons ended up with rabies- the family was vaccinated in time and they people were fine, but rabies isn't so uncommon.

I have my rabies vaccine because I worked with bats and suffered zero side effects from the vaccine. You can not just get the vaccine at the local CVS- it's not readily available and quite pricey.

So, your dogs, your decision! I won't take that risk. I would advise everyone to make an informed decision, based on the science and facts, not anti-vax propaganda.
 
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