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1,314 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Okay guys, I could really use some help. Today, I took both my boys to get their vaccinations at the vets office, the same one we always go to. The lady gave both of my dogs rabies shots! Zeus is going to be thirteen weeks on Wednesday. My Dad asked the lady twice if this was going to have a negative effect or if it was too early, and she said it was fine. Is he in any immediate danger? Is Apollo too young to get a rabies vaccination too?

The other vaccines that got were:

Apollo: Parvo (DA2-PPV)
Zeus: Same as Apollo

5,483 Posts
Our clinic gives dogs their first rabies at 4 months so that's totally fine for Apollo. I'm surprised they gave one to Zeus though. Not sure if it's actually dangerous to do it before that or not but I've never heard of them giving the shot before 4 months. I guess they were trying to save you another trip in in 3 weeks? But I'd think you'd be due for your last in the puppy series then anyway, so that doesn't really track either. strange.

1,314 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
He's due back in four weeks they said for his last series. I was just worried because I read somewhere that twelve weeks was too young to give a dog a rabies shot.

1,314 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
So, basically my vet is trying to make me pay more money? Zeus will be fine?

1,816 Posts
I would watch them both very closely as they had alot of shots and worming. I would never give rabies with a combo shot and would not vaccinate pups that young. You may not see damage today, but don't be surprised to possibly see immune or behavioral issues down the road. I suggest you do a search and see some of the studies and imformation about vaccines and the damage they can do. It is your responsibility to learn about what is best for your dogs and not expect the vets to. It is their job and they are there to make money off of you. They have a "nut" to cover and loans to pay back so don't be surprised at being charged for extras.

1,314 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Oh no, Apollo had immune system problems when he was a pup with puppy strangles (Juvenile Cellulitis) Should I bring him to the vet?

1,118 Posts
From another list....




Dr. W. Jean Dodd's vaccination protocol is now being adopted by
ALL 27 North American veterinary schools. I highly recommend that
you read this. Copy and save it to your files. Print it and pass
it out at dog fairs, cat shows, kennel club meetings, dog parks,
give a copy to your veterinarian and groomer, etc., etc.*
Get the word out.


*I would like to make you aware that all 27 veterinary schools in
North America are in the process of changing their protocols for
vaccinating dogs and cats. Some of this information will present an ethical
&economic challenge to vets, and there will be skeptics.

Some organizations have come up with a political compromise
suggesting vaccinations every 3 years to appease those who fear
loss of income vs. those concerned about potential side effects. Politics,
traditions, or the doctor's economic well being should not be a
factor in medical decision.


"Dogs and cats immune systems mature fully at 6 months. If a
modified live virus vaccine is given after 6 months of age, it
produces an immunity which is good for the life of the pet (ie:
canine distemper,parvo, feline distemper). If another MLV vaccine
is given a year later, the antibodies from the first vaccine
neutralize the antigens of the second vaccine and there is little
or no effect. The titer is not "boosted" nor are more memory
cells induced." Not only are annual boosters for parvo and distemper unnecessary, they subject the pet to potential risks of allergic reactions and immune-mediated hemolytic anemia. "There is no scientific documentation to back up label claims for annual administration of MLV vaccines."
Puppies receive antibodies through their mothers milk. This
natural protection can last 8-14weeks. Puppies & kittens should
NOT be vaccinated at LESS than 8weeks. Maternal immunity will
neutralize the vaccine and little protection (0-38%) will be produced. Vaccination at 6 weeks will, however, delay the timing of the first highly
effective vaccine. Vaccinations given 2 weeks apart suppress
rather than stimulate the immune system. A series of vaccinations
is given starting at 8 weeks and given 3-4 weeks apart up to 16
weeks of age.Another vaccination given sometime after 6 months of
age (usually at 1 year 4mo) will provide lifetime immunity.

Distemper & Parvo * "According to Dr. Schultz, AVMA, 8-15-95,
when a vaccinations series given at 2, 3 & 4 months and again at
1 year with a MLV, puppies and kitten program memory cells that survive for
life, providing lifelong immunity." Dr. Carmichael at Cornell and
Dr. Schultz have studies showing immunity against challenge at 2-10 years for
canine distemper & 4 years for parvovirus. Studies for longer
duration are pending. "There are no new strains of parvovirus as
one mfg. would like to suggest. Parvovirus vaccination provides
cross immunity for all types." Hepatitis (Adenovirus) is one of
the agents known to be a cause of kennel cough. Only vaccines
with CAV-2 should be used asCAV-1 vaccines carry the risk of
"hepatitis blue-eye" reactions & kidney damage.**Bordetella Parainfluenza: Commonly called "Kennel cough" Recommended only for those dogs boarded, groomed, taken to dog shows, or for any reason housed where exposed to a lot of dogs. The intranasal vaccine provides more complete and more
rapid onset of immunity with less chance of reaction. Immunity requires 72 hours and does not protect from every cause of kennel cough. Immunity is of short duration (4 to
6 months).*

*RABIES There have been no reported cases of rabid dogs or cats
in Harris, Montogomery or Ft. Bend Counties [Texas], there have
been rabid skunks and bats so the potential exists. / It is a
killed vaccineand must be given every year./*//

*Lyme disease_is a tick born disease which can cause lameness,
kidney failure and heart disease in dogs. Ticks can also transmit
the disease to humans. The original Ft. Dodge killed bacteria has proven to be the most effective vaccine. Lyme disease prevention should emphasize early
removal of ticks. Amitraz collars are more effective than Top
Spot, as amitraz paralyzes the tick's mouthparts preventing
transmission of disease.

Multiple components in vaccines compete with each other for the
immune system and result in lesser immunity for each individual
disease as well as increasing the risk of a reaction. Canine Corona Virus is only a disease of puppies. It is rare, self limiting (dogs get well in
3 days without treatment). Cornell & Texas A&M have only
diagnosed one case each in the last 7 years. Corona virus does
not cause disease in adult dogs.*

*Leptospirosis vaccine is a common cause of adverse reactions in
dogs. Most of the clinical cases of lepto reported in dogs in the
US are caused by serovaars (or types) grippotyphosa and
bratsilvia. The vaccines contain different serovaars eanicola and
ictohemorrhagica. Cross protection is not provided and protection
is short lived. Lepto vaccine is immuno-supressive to puppies
less than 16 weeks.

Feline vaccine related Fibrosarcoma is a type of terminal cancer
related in inflammation caused by rabies & leukemia vaccines.
This cancer is thought to affect 1 in 10,000 cats vaccinated.
Vaccines with aluminum adjuvant, an ingredient included to
stimulate the immune system, have been implicated as a higher
risk. We now recommend anon-adjuvanted rabies vaccine for cats. Testing by Dr. Macy, Colorado State , has shown this vaccine to have the lowest
tissue reaction and although there is no guarantee that a vaccine induced sarcoma will not develop, the risk will be much lower than with other

*Program injectable 6 mo flea prevention for cats has been shown
to be very tissue reactive & therefore has the potential of
inducing an injection site fiborsarcoma. If your cats develops a
lump at the site of a vaccination, we recommend that it be
removed ASAP, within 3-12 weeks.*

*Feline Leukemia Virus Vaccine This virus is the leading viral
killer of cats. The individuals most at risk of infection are
young outdoor cats, indoor/outdoor cats and cats exposed to such
individuals. Indoor only cats with no exposure to potentially
infected cats are unlikely to become infected. All cats should be
tested prior to vaccination. /Cats over one year of age are
naturally immune to Fel.V whether they are vaccinated or not, so
annual vaccination of adult cats is NOT necessary. The
incubation period of Feline leukemia can be over 3 years, so if
your cat is in the incubation state of the disease prior to
vaccination, the vaccine will not
prevent the disease. *

/Feline Panleukopenia Virus Vaccine. Also called feline
distemper is a highly contagious and deadly viral disease of
kittens. It's extremely hardy and is resistant
to extremes in temperature and to most available disinfectants.
Although an effective treatment protocol is available, it is
expensive to treat because of the serious nature of the disease
and the continued presence of virus in the environment,
vaccination is highly recommended for all kittens. Cats
vaccinated at 6 month or older
with either killed or MLV vaccine will produce an immunity good
for life. Adult cats do NOT need this vaccine./*

*/Feline Calicivirus/ Herpesvirus Vaccine. Responsible for
80-90% of infectious feline upper respiratory tract diseases.
The currently available injectable vaccines will minimize the
severity of upper respiratory infections, although none will
prevent disease in all situations.* *Intranasal vaccines are
more effective at preventing the disease entirely. Don't worry
about normal sneezing for a couple of days. Because intranasal
vaccines produce an immunity of shorter durations,
annual vaccination is recommended.

Chlamydia or pneumonitis. The vaccine produces on a short (2
month)duration of immunity and accounts for less than 5% of upper
respiratory infections in cats. The risks outweigh the benefits.*
*Feline Infectious Peritonitis. A controversial vaccine. Most
kittens that contract FIP become infected during the first 3
months of life. The vaccine is labeled foruse at 16 weeks. All 27
vet schools do not recommend the vaccine.*

Bordetella A new vaccine for feline bordetella has been
introduced. Dr. Wolfe of Texas A&M says that bordetella is a
normal flora and does not cause disease in adult cats. Dr. Lappin of Colorado State says that a review of the Colorado State medical records reveals not one case diagnosed in 10 years.

NEW DEVELOPMENTS: Giardia is the most common intestinal parasite
of humans inNorth America , 30% or more of all dogs & cats are
infected with giardia. It has now been demonstrated that humans can transmit
giardiato dogs & cats & vice versa. *

Heartworm preventative must be given year-round in Houston .

*VACCINES BADLY NEEDED New vaccines in development include:
Feline Immunodeficiency Virus and cat scratch fever vaccine for
cats and Ehrlichia [one of the other tick diseases, much worse than Lymes]
for dogs.

Most vets recommend annual boosters and most kennel operators
require them. For years the pricing structure of vets has misled
clients into thinking that the inherent value of an annual office
visit was in the "shots" they failed to emphasize the importance
of a physical exam for early detection of treatable diseases. It
is my hope that you will continue to require rabies & Kennel
cough and emphasize the importance of a recent vet exam. I also
hope you will accept the new protocols and honor these pets as currently vaccinated. Those in the boarding business who will honor the new vaccine protocols can gain new customers who were turned away from vet owned boarding facilities reluctant to

Dogs & cats no longer need to be vaccinated against distemper,
parvo, & feline leukemia every year. Once the initial series of
puppy or kitten vaccinations and first annual vaccinations are
completed, immunity from MLV vaccines persists for life. It has
been shown that cats over 1 year of age are immune to Feline
Leukemia whether they have been vaccinated or not. Imagine the
money you will save, not to mention less risks from side effects.
PCR rabies vaccine, because it is not adjuvanted, will mean less
risk of mediated hemolytic anemia and allergic reactions are
reduced by less frequent use of vaccines as well as by avoiding
unnecessary vaccines such as K-9 Corona virus and chlamydia for
cats, as well as ineffective vaccines such as Leptospirosis and
FIP. Intranasal vaccine for Rhiotracheitis and Calici virus, two
upper respiratory viruses of cats provide more complete
protection than injectable vaccines with less risk of serious

The AAHA and all 27 veterinary schools of North America are our
biggest endorsement for these new protocols.*

*Dr. Bob Rogers*

Please consider as current on all vaccinations
for boarding purposes.

DOGS Initial series of puppy vaccines
1. distemper, hepatitis, parvo, parinfluenze - 3 sets one month
apart concluding at 16 weeks of age.*
2. Rabies at 16 weeks of age (later is better)
3. Bordetella within last 4-6 months First annual (usually at 1
year and4 months of age)*
1. DHP, Parvo, Rabies
2. Bordetella within last 4-6 months 2 years or older
1. Rabies with in last year
2. Bordetella within last 4-6 months
3. DHP & Parvo given anytime over 6 months of age , but not
necessarily within the last year.
Recommended: Physical exam for transmissible diseases and health

*CATS Initial kitten series
1. Distemper [PLP], Rhino Calicivirus, Feline Leukemia Vaccine -
3 sets given one month apart concluding at 16weeks.
2. Rabies at 16 weeks
First Annual [usually at 1 year and 4 months of age]
1. Distemper (PLP), Rhino Calicivirus, Rabies 2 years or older
1. Rabies within the last year
2. Rhino Calicivirus within last year
3. Distemper and FelV given anytime after 6 months of age, but
not necessarily with the last year.
Recommended: Physical exam, FeLV/FIV testing, fecal exam for

932 Posts
that is strange at 13 wks my vet won't before 16 wks and only if they (depending on breed) is at a suitable weight sometimes if he feels they need to grow some more before getting them he will wait but never befre 16 wks

5,483 Posts
The protocol listed above is actually a hoax and is not the same as the one really recommended by the vet schools which DO still recommend shots starting at 6 weeks.

Protocols are indeed changing and there's a move towards fewer vaccinations in adult life but the above circulating email has been altered and has some things in it that aren't true.

4,520 Posts
Originally Posted By: GSDOwner2008Oh no, Apollo had immune system problems when he was a pup with puppy strangles (Juvenile Cellulitis) Should I bring him to the vet?
To do what?
You can't undo the damage from vaccines, once they got them. There's no antidote.
Hopefully he will be fine. Keeping all
s crossed!

1,314 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I wasn't suggesting that there was an antidote, or a magical cure, but if he has side effects that occur (Which haven't yet, thank goodness!) That the vet should be able to ease his distress, that's all. Also through further reading, I've decided that my boys aren't getting any further vac's except the ones that are required by law. I'm not putting my dogs through further risk.

1,816 Posts
Actually you can consult with a homeopath and try to undue some of the damage. You would be amazed at what homeopathy can do. I would also look into a more natural diet for your dogs to help boost their immune systems.

A vet that would put that much strain on a young pups immature immune system is part of the problem and wouldn't have a solution. JMO

BTW in the future you might want to stagger vaccines a month apart to allow the system to respond and recover from each vaccine.

7,782 Posts
Originally Posted By: GSDOwner2008able to Also through further reading, I've decided that my boys aren't getting any further vac's except the ones that are required by law. I'm not putting my dogs through further risk.
If you DON'T give Zeus any more shots, you are STILL putting him at risk. He is not 4 months old yet. And should get his last DHPP at 4 months.

1,816 Posts
You can run titers for parvo & distemper 2 weeks after the vaccinations. This way you can see if he has had an immune response. The reason they suggest so many vaccinations especially if the pups start young is they don't know if the maternal antibodies will interfer basically knocking out the pups immune system.

I don't vaccinate my pups and I had them titered at 14 weeks and they all showed normal antibody levels for both parvo and distemper. I also have a dog who only received a vaccination at 8 weeks and a rabies at 1 year and she has been all over - even to Europe with no problems. I titered her at 8 months and her titers were as high as a 6 year old adult I had done at the same time.

1,314 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Quote:If you DON'T give Zeus any more shots, you are STILL putting him at risk. He is not 4 months old yet. And should get his last DHPP at 4 months.
Just to clarify, I meant after all of his puppy vaccs.

356 Posts
Originally Posted By: GSDOwner2008Okay guys, I could really use some help. Today, I took both my boys to get their vaccinations at the vets office, the same one we always go to. The lady gave both of my dogs rabies shots! Zeus is going to be thirteen weeks on Wednesday. My Dad asked the lady twice if this was going to have a negative effect or if it was too early, and she said it was fine. Is he in any immediate danger? Is Apollo too young to get a rabies vaccination too?

The other vaccines that got were:

Apollo: Parvo (DA2-PPV)
Zeus: Same as Apollo

First of all, you should check your state law and see what age Zeus is required to have a rabies vaccination. Here in Maine, it is 6 months -- the age at which a puppy's immune system is fully developed and the age at which he is most likely to have the desired immunological response to vaccination.

The world's top veterinary vaccine research scientists (Dr. Jean Dodds and Dr. Ronald Schultz) recommend that vaccines be given separately (separated by 2-4 week intervals <span style="color: #CC0000">"It should be noted that giving vaccine more frequently than every 2 weeks will cause interference between the two vaccines and neither can be expected to be effective."</span> ), especially the rabies vaccine as it is the most potent of all veterinary vaccines and the one most likely to cause an adverse reaction.

By clustering vaccinations, you not only increase the likelihood of an adverse reaction, you also increase the likelihood that the vaccine components will interfere with one another and neutralize or negate the immunological response. On Page 16 of the 2003 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines under Immunological Factors Determining Vaccine Safety[/b], it states that: <span style="color: #CC0000">"Although increasing the number of components in a vaccine may be more convenient for the practitioner or owner, the likelihood for adverse effects may increase. Also, interference can occur among the components. Care must be taken not to administer a product containing too many vaccines simultaneously if adverse events are to be avoided and optimal immune responses are sought. "</span>

The age of a puppy is an important consideration when vaccinating because of the interference of maternal antibodies. On Page 16 of the of the American Animal Hospital Association's 2003 Canine Vaccine Guidelines, it reports that: <span style="color: #CC0000">When vaccinating an animal, the age of the animal, the animal's immune status, and interference by maternal antibodies in the development of immunity must be considered. Research has demonstrated that the presence of passively acquired maternal antibodies significantly interferes with the immune response to many canine vaccines, including CPV [parvo], CDV [distemper], CAV-2 [hepatitis] and rabies vaccines.</span>"

They further state on Page 17 that: <span style="color: #CC0000"> "Multiple vaccinations with MLV vaccines are required at various ages only to ensure that one dose of the vaccine reaches the puppy's immune system without interference from passively acquired antibody. Two or more doses of killed vaccines (except rabies) and vectored vaccines are often required to induce an immune response, </span>and <span style="color: #CC0000">both doses should be given at a time when the passively acquired antibody can no longer interfere. Thus, when puppies are first vaccinated at 16 weeks (or more) of age (an age when passively acquired antibodies generally don't cause interference), one does of an MLV vaccine, or two doses of a killed vaccine, are adequate to stimulate an immune response</span>."

The AAHA Canine Vaccine Guidelines also declare on Page 17 that: "<span style="color: #CC0000">If a pup fails to respond, primarily due to interference by passively acquired maternal antibody, it is necessary to revaccinate at a later time to ensure adequate immunity."</span>

On Page 13 of the 2006 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines, it lists as the most common reason for vaccination failure is "<span style="color: #CC0000">the puppy has a sufficient amount of passively acquired maternal antibody (PAMA) to block the vaccine......" </span>They elaborate by reporting that at the ages of 14 to 16 weeks of age, "<span style="color: #CC0000">PAMA should be at a level that will not block active immunization in most puppies (>95%) when a reliable product is used." </span>

The World Small Animal Veterinary Association's 2007 Vaccination Guidelines state on Page 3 that: In situations where, for example, a decision must be made that an individual pet may have to receive only a single core vaccination during its lifetime, the VGG [Vaccination Guidelines Group] would emphasise that this should optimally be given<span style="color: #CC0000"> at a time when that animal is most capable of responding immunologically, i.e., at the age of 16 weeks or greater."</span>


Rabies Shot Killed my Poodle May 28, 2008 Channel 5 News WCVB

Duration of Immunity to Canine Vaccines: What We Know and Don't Know, Dr. Ronald Schultz

What Everyone Needs to Know about Canine Vaccines, Dr. Ronald Schultz

World Small Animal Veterinary Association 2007 Vaccine Guidelines Scroll down to Vaccine Guidelines 2007 (PDF)

The 2003 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are accessible online at .

The 2006 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are downloadable in PDF format at .

Veterinarian, Dr. Robert Rogers,has an excellent presentation on veterinary vaccines at

October 1, 2002 DVM Newsletter article entitled, AVMA, AAHA to Release Vaccine Positions,

July 1, 2003 DVM Newsletter article entitled, What Do We Tell Our Clients?, Developing thorough plan to educate staff on changing vaccine protocols essential for maintaining solid relationships with clients and ensuring quality care

July 1, 2003, DVM Newsletter article, Developing Common Sense Strategies for Fiscal Responsibility: Using an interactive template to plan service protocol changes

Animal Wellness Magazine Article Vol. 8 Issue 6, How Often Does he REALLY Need A Rabies Shot Animal Wellness Magazine - devoted to natural health in animals

The Rabies Challenge Animal Wise Radio Interview
Listen to Animal Wise (scroll down to The Rabies Challenge 12/9/07)

The Vaccine Challenge Animal Talk Naturally Online Radio Show » The Vaccine Challenge - Show #91

US Declared Canine-Rabies Free -- CDC Announces at Inaugural World Rabies Day Symposium CDC Press Release - September 7, 2007

Rabies Prevention -- United States, 1991 Recommendations of the Immunization Practices Advisory Committee (ACIP), Center for Disease Control's Morbidity and Mortality Weekly March 22, 1991 / 40(RR03);1-19 <span style="color: #CC0000">"A fully vaccinated dog or cat is unlikely to become infected with rabies, </span>although rare cases have been reported (48). In a nationwide study of rabies among dogs and cats in 1988, only one dog and two cats that were vaccinated contracted rabies (49). All three of these animals had received only single doses of vaccine; <span style="color: #CC0000">no documented vaccine failures occurred among dogs or cats that had received two vaccinations. "</span>

356 Posts
Are Our Pets Being Overvaccinated--Article

There is an interesting article on veterinary vaccines which you can read in its entirety at the link below.

Are Our Pets Being Overvaccinated, by Melissa Burden, The Press

(Dr. W. Jean Dodds) “<span style="color: #990000">But there is really no breed that is not at risk,” she said. The only vaccination needed, she asserts, is the rabies vaccine because it is legally required. <u>Dogs’ and cats’ immune systems mature fully at 6 months old, she explained. If canine distemper, feline distemper and parvovirus vaccines are given after 6 months, a pet has immunity for the rest of its life</u>.</span>

(Dr. Robert Rogers)
<span style="color: #990000">“Dogs and cats no longer need to be vaccinated against distemper, parvo, and feline leukemia every year,” Rogers said. “Once the initial series of puppy or kitten vaccinations and first annual vaccinations are completed, immunity…persists for life. Not only are annual boosters for parvo and distemper unnecessary, they subject the pet to the potential risk of adverse reactions, he added.</span>

This is what Dr. Ronald Schultz had to say in his 2007 presentation to the AKC Canine Health Foundation entitled,What Everyone Needs to Know About Canine Vaccines and Vaccination Programs :

<span style="color: #990000">"My own dogs, those of my children and grandchildren are vaccinated with MLV CDV, CPV-2, CPI, andCAV-2 vaccines once as puppies after the age of 12 weeks. An antibody titer is performed two or more weeks later and if found positive our dogs are never again vaccinated. "</span> he further elaborates: <span style="color: #990000">"I have used this vaccination program with modifications (CAV-2 replaced CAV-1 vaccines in 1970's and CPV-2 vaccines were first used in 1980) since 1974! I have never had one of our dogs develop CDV, CAV-1 or CPV-2 even though they have had exposure to many dogs, wildlife and to virulent CPV-2 virus. You may say that I have been lucky, but it is not luck that protects my dogs, it is immunologic memory." </span>

910 Posts
Re: Are Our Pets Being Overvaccinated--Article

Here in West Virginia state law says pups require a rabies at 3 mos of age!!!
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