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I have spent the last 2 weeks getting Kodee used to having collars taken off/put on multiple times a day ,without actually attaching the leash to the prong (so he wouldn't become "collar wise.") Today we finally attached his leash to his prong to go outside, just for a potty break. OMG - it worked great! Kodee pulled slightly as we were going out the front door, and he gave a little yelp and he didn't pull again at all from then til we came back inside. This is quite a feat as we have a crew of contractors outside of our house building a new deck.
Ordinarily he tries to drag me over to them so he can say hi and act a fool.


Anyway - I have a question: I know you are supposed to put the prong on 1/2 hour before you attach leash, and leave it on 1/2 hour after you remove leash. But what if you go out several times throughout the day (Kodee is a house dog - we go out a lot for potty breaks, and he also rides in the car w/us usually at least 1-2 times per day to drop off/pick up kids). So, I wondered if I can leave his prong on throughout the day. Otherwise, it's an hour of "prong time w/no leash" every time we need to go somewhere. So, as long as it doesn't seem uncomfortable to him to have it on, can we leave it on most of the day if we're going to be in and out a lot?
 

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I use prong collars with both of mine and have never used the 1/2 hour rule, never heard of it!!

I do not leave it on after walks as they horse around so much I am afraid one will get hung up on the other one.
 

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Thanks, guys. That makes me feel better. John - I actually got the 1/2 hour rule from Ed Frawley's Leerburg site info.
It's just supposed to help the dog not associate having the collar put on with "OK, I have to mind -that collar's on me again." Otherwise, the dog could end up acting like a PITA when he knows he doesn't have the prong on.

I was just worried that there might be a reason not to leave it on for greater lengths of time. He's our only dog, so he doesn't wrestle around w/anyone, and I always take it off if he's unattended (like in the crate or in the car while I'm in the store.)

Thanks!
 

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That's the main safety issue, just not to have it on when you can't watch. Frawley's other articles promote keeping a prong and drag line on a new dog all day while he's loose in the house and still adjusting (and you can watch him), so I don't think it would hurt anything.
 

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Originally Posted By: KodeeGirlThanks, guys. That makes me feel better. John - I actually got the 1/2 hour rule from Ed Frawley's Leerburg site info.
It's just supposed to help the dog not associate having the collar put on with "OK, I have to mind -that collar's on me again." Otherwise, the dog could end up acting like a PITA when he knows he doesn't have the prong on.

I was just worried that there might be a reason not to leave it on for greater lengths of time. He's our only dog, so he doesn't wrestle around w/anyone, and I always take it off if he's unattended (like in the crate or in the car while I'm in the store.)

Thanks!
As long as the prong is going on for as much fun stuff (trips to the store or park or even out to play ball) as for hard training sessions the dog will look forward to having it on if you don't bother with the 1/2 hour rule.

Basically you condition the dog that there is really good chance that putting that collar on is going to result in a fun experience and you don't have to worry about any complicated rule systems.

I usually introduce my dog to it by putting it on then going right out to play ball off leash then removing it right when we come in. Three years and many corrections later I still put it on to go play ball. He looks forward to seeing the collar come out an he wants me to put it on him.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks, guys. Tim - I hadn't heard that, but it makes perfect sense. Right now we only use the collar for walks, going out (in the car to the pet store, park, etc). I won't be using it for corrections probably for a few more weeks, since he's only 7 mos old right now, and I want to bond w/him for a while longer before we start doing corrections (I got him at 7 weeks old).

Thanks all for the good advice!
 

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I use a prong with Megga when I walk her. She has it associated with "I get to go somewhere and probably the dog park." At which time I have it off of her as I don't want her to hurt by a dog playing, although they typically all just run as a herd and she tries to keep everyone together. I think like they said that if you have it associated with good things that leaving it on for a half hour doesn't really matter.
 

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i hope i dont step on any toes here but im sure i will
i ahve been battling to have dog bans flipped for years now, and part of the evidence proving that its the owner who has the ability to make the diference in a dogs personality was the use of the prong collars. A cousin of ours had one for their GSD and i had him put it on himself. Then i proved what it does to the dog. he took the collar off and out it went.

Prong collars are a torture device. In most cities across Ontario they have been banned (thank you very much). They have the ability to inflict emotional and physical suffering on the very fur babies that we love. We would never think of training a child with one, nor should we with a dog.I agree it gets and keeps their attention. i agree tht they learn fast using this method.
but i have also seen the collars imbedded in the necks of dogs who were using them and were allowed off leash to play with it on and got snagged on a bush.
ive seen lovable, trusting animals turn into dogs taht are constantly on guard and no longer trusting of humans. ive seen the scars on GSD and other dogs while i have been grooming them at the shelters. i dont believe in the electircal training collars either. Citronella sure, but unless we are willing to put one of these on ourself and allow someone to continually shock us to try to quit smoking or wear a prong collar and let our spouses yank us around, i dont think we should be using them on a dog that cant say, 'hey, enough, i dont want that on me. i dont want to be hurt."

have you ever looked into the eyes of a dog that had been wearing a prong collar the first time and had it used? The happiness and light goes out and the look in their eyes is replaced with saddness and a look that says 'But i thought you love me."
 

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I don't know what to say about prong collars because I haven't used one yet although they appear to be effect and humane. We must be careful not to always anthromorphisize our pets.
 

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Originally Posted By: bearlasmom

Prong collars are a torture device.
I don't know what to say other than wow...

I thought that sort of thinking went out the window years ago, but apparently not.

A prong collar is far from a torture device. It is a tool, and like any tool it can be used for good or ill depending on the skill, understanding, and ethics of the user.

And yes, I have used it on myself to see what it was like. And used it on dogs who have not been tortured with mental and physical suffereing, had it imbeded in their neck, caused trust issues with me, or had the "happiness and light go out of their eyes to be replaced by sadness".
 

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Originally Posted By: bearlasmomProng collars are a torture device. In most cities across Ontario they have been banned (thank you very much).
This simply isn't true and I would be interested in seeing any information on provincial regulations against prong collars. As far as I know, the Ontario government has not stepped in and told dog owners what type of collars they can put on their dogs. Unfortunately, they do try to tell us what breeds we can and can't own, but that's a whole other thread.

There will always be an ongoing debate for and against prong collars. I actually think it's quite simple. If you don't like, don't use them. If you're going to use them, find out how to use them properly.

Originally Posted By: bearlasmomWe would never think of training a child with one, nor should we with a dog.
Dogs aren't children. If they were "trained" using the same methods, I would have invested in crates long before I ever had dogs.


Originally Posted By: bearlasmomhave you ever looked into the eyes of a dog that had been wearing a prong collar the first time and had it used? The happiness and light goes out and the look in their eyes is replaced with saddness and a look that says 'But i thought you love me."
In this case, I would have to question the way the collar was first introduced to the dog, and the training abilities of the person using it. This is not a common reaction among dogs wearing a prong collar.

There's nothing wrong with debate or expressing an opinion about a training method, but spreading misinformation isn't going to help anyone, IMO.
 

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Originally Posted By: ardavis324 We must be careful not to always anthromorphisize our pets.
Absolutely. They are not children. They are dogs. One of the most disrespectful things a dog owner can do to their dogs is to forget that, and treat him as something he is not.

Appropriately used, and timed physical corrections are something that a dog understands and responds to because it is something they use to communicate with one another. Thus they can be valuable in training.

Ever seen dogs interacting with one another and one dog steps over the line into rude or inappropriate behavior? What does the other dog do? Give him a time out? Ground him? Sit down and explain that that really wasn't very nice and everyone would appreciate it if he acted better in the future? Nope. He bites the offender. And the offender quickly gets the message, behavior improves, attitude isn't harmed in any way, and everyone goes back to enjoying their time together.
 

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Dogs are not "furbabies" or "children". They are dogs. The ideal GSD according to standard is a driven, intelligent and powerful animal with awesome capabilities. To equate them with something that sounds like a freaking guinea pig or a toddler is ignorant. Flat collars, chains including choke or fur savers, halti's, and virtually any other training tool can be torture devices if used incorrectly. I have given myself live and dead ring prong corrections on my upper arm and my leg. I have given myself e-collar corrections as well. I refuse to put something on my dogs that I will not test on myself. Stupid people do stupid things with and to children and other human beings every day much less poor animals. Because some other moron cannot train in a humane manner with a certain tool does not dictate that I cannot use it.

I have never seen the look you are talking about in my dogs eyes, and FYI dogs can say "hey, enough, I don't want to be hurt". It's written all over a dogs whole body expression when pressured too far. People that actually know how to train and work with dogs CAN understand 100% what a dog is trying to tell them. Do you know what my dogs tell me when they get prong stimulation while out of position when training to heel? "Oh, I lost my head and got out of position. Here, now I'm back. GIVE ME MY TOY! GIVE ME MY TOY! i WANT MY BITE!" When they say this their body language is pumped up and hapy with tail and ears up with bright eyes.
 

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i second what john says. i've used the prong on myself, and did not find it painful (and i don't have fur). does it deliver a physical message? yes.

if you have a dog with aggression issues - and i don't just mean 'he growled at someone' aggression, i mean a dog who is perfectly happy to take on any comers (like oh say teagan) - my experience - a flat collar means nothing to that dog, if it's hard, slips into drive easily and turns on (so to speak) to the exclusion of its surroundings - try and see what a flat collar will do. or a martingale. a halti or gentle leader is just absurd. a prong collar is one more tool - should you yank and crank your dog? hurt it? no. do i still need to catch teagan early with a prong? yes, otherwise, it either means nothing to her or she escalates. but a prong is one tool to make sure that teagan is safe, and that those around her are safe as well. i'm not hurting her, but i'm making it clear to her that she is not the only one who needs to be reckoned with.

i train teagan by and large with positive methods/reinforcement. but for her aggression? i correct her, and i would be wrong not to, and i need a tool that can through to her. i do try and eliminate opportunities for her to become aggressive, but i can't control our surroundings 100% of the time. for the times i can't, a prong is an important tool. it's not about being cruel, or beating up my dog, but it does stop teagan, and it's taught her that she can be stopped, and that i'm someone who has the power to dictate her behaviour. i've never had teagan do anything but start wagging her tail and whining to go out the second she sees her prong. she loves it.
 

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I've always used prong collars for training, conditioning, and also for walks so the dog thinks something fun is about to happen everytime he sees the collar. I haven't found a better tool for correcting aggressive behavior.
 

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Wow is right Chris.......I'm a bit shocked that this thinking is still around with anyone experienced in handling GSD's. I love my girl to death, would never raise a hand or hurt a hair on her head......but I will use a prong collar because she can (and will) run right through anything if the right incentive pops up (and yes that includes a halti or a gentle leader). I prefer my girl to REMAIN unharmed so I will continue to use one as appropriate.

John, you really hit the nail on the head.
I have given myself e-collar corrections as well. I refuse to put something on my dogs that I will not test on myself. Stupid people do stupid things with and to children and other human beings every day much less poor animals. Because some other moron cannot train in a humane manner with a certain tool does not dictate that I cannot use it.
I keep thinking maybe this person is mistaking a prong for something else.....studies have gone back for 40+ years that demonstrate how effective AND HUMANE the use of this tool is.
 

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Quote: have you ever looked into the eyes of a dog that had been wearing a prong collar the first time and had it used? The happiness and light goes out and the look in their eyes is replaced with saddness and a look that says 'But i thought you love me."
Dogs are manipulators and opportunists.. They learn easily how to play their handlers.. They become very good at it w/weak uneducated handlers!!

This look your talking about is probably more on the lines of- the dog isn't getting away with all the crap it had before.. It's owner is finally trying to get some kind of control..
 
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