[Jchrest]

@Thecowboysgirl I have a dog most would deem as dangerous. She has a prior bite history with humans. Including me when I first got her. She’s nipped at a few ankles to get men alway from her in my home (also when I first got her) but she did bite one man twice a little over a year ago. It’s a man that lived in apt complex I lived in and managed. This guy was very odd, was always on something (both drugs and alcoholic), and I told him multiple times not to approach me when I had my dogs out, because Lyka clearly didn’t like him. I told him she is prone to biting. I told him anything we needed to discuss could be discussed during business hours. The first time she bite him, it was with a soft mouth and didn’t leave marks or break skin. He came up quickly behind me, shouted my name, and when I turned around he tossed a box towards me while still approaching me with a manic energy. Lyka bite him. I told him I would pay for any medical costs if he wanted to be looked at, and would call AC if he wanted to report it. He declined both, apologized for approaching me in such a manner, and walked away. The second time, months later, I was walking her at night to lock up all the facilities (pool, laundry, common room). This time he didn’t say a word, walked up quietly and quickly and placed his hand on my shoulder from behind. This time Lyka didn’t use a soft mouth. She bite his hand, and did break skin. He jumped back for a second, and then tried to get close to me again. This guy has zero ideas of what personal space is. He wants to be an inch from your face to talk. So after I turned around and saw who it was, Lyka reacted while he got really close to me again, and she went into full on attack mode, bit his hand again, he still didn’t move, and she climbed him and bit his stomach and shredded his shirt. Broke skin on his stomach as well, in multiple places. Again, I offered medical assistance (call ambulance or drive him to the hospital, and would also call AC for him to report. He said no, turned around and booked it.

Was she protecting me? Was it just a man that she really really didn’t like personally? Did she sense my discomfort with this man, or did she sense something not right in him. I don’t know. But I do know right before I moved, that same main was arrested for serial rape with minors, and the death of one minor female. I consider myself lucky. This man also had a horrible temper and would come in the office screaming in my face if he got a failure to pay notice posted on his door. Do I think he would have raped me? No, I’m not his MO. Do I think he could have killed me in a fit of rage? Absolutely.

I still have Lyka. We have traveled long distances together, and never had an issue. She is secured in my vehicle, she doesn’t just free roam. None of my dogs do, they are all tethered in. It’s a risk I am willing to take. If I was involved in another accident, and Lyka tried to injure people trying to help me, I understand what the consequences are for her. I realize what they are for me. I still would not euthanize her, or keep her in lock down 24/7 inside my home. She goes to the vet with zero problems. She ignores anyone that comes in the house with the exception of my brother and brother in law, whom she will nip at the ankles while barking at them. They are both creeps, I don’t blame her. Lucky for me, a nip on the leg of their jeans was all it took for them to stop coming by, when they knew I didn’t want them coming by anyway.

She’s not some crazed man eating beast, she is a dog, doing her job. I take precautions around other people’s children, and she goes in her room when children are over playing. Not because I don’t trust her, but because we are the “scary dog” house to parents, so we agree to crate/room the dogs so they will allow the kids over to play and swim. She has never so much as looked side eyes at any child, she loves them, but I still keep her interactions to my kids, and my kids cousins.

Not saying I’m right, not saying you’re right, just explaining it from a bite dog owners eyes.

FWIW, she has gotten out a few times at the apartment because of the girls, and she is perfectly happy and friendly to everyone she meets. She got loose once here when a worker left the back gate open and I didn’t check (like an idiot) before opening the doggie door. I booked it when I realized she had gotten out. I got a call from a guy about 5-6 blocks away saying he caught my two sweet dogs. She also has never so much as barked at cops in uniforms. We had cops coming and going from the apt complex all the time. One jokingly said he would take her as a K9 in a second. No thanks, she’s all mine!

 

[Thecowboysgirl]

@Thecowboysgirl I have a dog most would deem as dangerous. She has a prior bite history with humans. Including me when I first got her. She’s nipped at a few ankles to get men alway from her in my home (also when I first got her) but she did bite one man twice a little over a year ago. It’s a man that lived in apt complex I lived in and managed. This guy was very odd, was always on something (both drugs and alcoholic), and I told him multiple times not to approach me when I had my dogs out, because Lyka clearly didn’t like him. I told him she is prone to biting. I told him anything we needed to discuss could be discussed during business hours. The first time she bite him, it was with a soft mouth and didn’t leave marks or break skin. He came up quickly behind me, shouted my name, and when I turned around he tossed a box towards me while still approaching me with a manic energy. Lyka bite him. I told him I would pay for any medical costs if he wanted to be looked at, and would call AC if he wanted to report it. He declined both, apologized for approaching me in such a manner, and walked away. The second time, months later, I was walking her at night to lock up all the facilities (pool, laundry, common room). This time he didn’t say a word, walked up quietly and quickly and placed his hand on my shoulder from behind. This time Lyka didn’t use a soft mouth. She bite his hand, and did break skin. He jumped back for a second, and then tried to get close to me again. This guy has zero ideas of what personal space is. He wants to be an inch from your face to talk. So after I turned around and saw who it was, Lyka reacted while he got really close to me again, and she went into full on attack mode, bit his hand again, he still didn’t move, and she climbed him and bit his stomach and shredded his shirt. Broke skin on his stomach as well, in multiple places. Again, I offered medical assistance (call ambulance or drive him to the hospital, and would also call AC for him to report. He said no, turned around and booked it.

Was she protecting me? Was it just a man that she really really didn’t like personally? Did she sense my discomfort with this man, or did she sense something not right in him. I don’t know. But I do know right before I moved, that same main was arrested for serial rape with minors, and the death of one minor female. I consider myself lucky. This man also had a horrible temper and would come in the office screaming in my face if he got a failure to pay notice posted on his door. Do I think he would have raped me? No, I’m not his MO. Do I think he could have killed me in a fit of rage? Absolutely.

I still have Lyka. We have traveled long distances together, and never had an issue. She is secured in my vehicle, she doesn’t just free roam. None of my dogs do, they are all tethered in. It’s a risk I am willing to take. If I was involved in another accident, and Lyka tried to injure people trying to help me, I understand what the consequences are for her. I realize what they are for me. I still would not euthanize her, or keep her in lock down 24/7 inside my home. She goes to the vet with zero problems. She ignores anyone that comes in the house with the exception of my brother and brother in law, whom she will nip at the ankles while barking at them. They are both creeps, I don’t blame her. Lucky for me, a nip on the leg of their jeans was all it took for them to stop coming by, when they knew I didn’t want them coming by anyway.

She’s not some crazed man eating beast, she is a dog, doing her job. I take precautions around other people’s children, and she goes in her room when children are over playing. Not because I don’t trust her, but because we are the “scary dog” house to parents, so we agree to crate/room the dogs so they will allow the kids over to play and swim. She has never so much as looked side eyes at any child, she loves them, but I still keep her interactions to my kids, and my kids cousins.

Not saying I’m right, not saying you’re right, just explaining it from a bite dog owners eyes.

FWIW, she has gotten out a few times at the apartment because of the girls, and she is perfectly happy and friendly to everyone she meets. She got loose once here when a worker left the back gate open and I didn’t check (like an idiot) before opening the doggie door. I booked it when I realized she had gotten out. I got a call from a guy about 5-6 blocks away saying he caught my two sweet dogs. She also has never so much as barked at cops in uniforms. We had cops coming and going from the apt complex all the time. One jokingly said he would take her as a K9 in a second. No thanks, she’s all mine!

You said " It’s a risk I am willing to take. If I was involved in another accident, and Lyka tried to injure people trying to help me, I understand what the consequences are for her. I realize what they are for me."

What you didn't say was, I realize what the consequences could be for someone ELSE. That's the point I'm trying to make. Think about the people who are not criminals, who haven't done anything unreasonable, who should not be bitten.

Dogs bite. Occupational hazard for me. But finding out everything I did after the one bit me and there was a decent story behind it... it really changed the way I look at these things. I also learned that I have much less sympathy for dangerous dogs and the people who decide to keep them.

You're excusing your dog with a bite history barking at and "nipping" the legs of family members. Your dog with a bite history has escaped and run at large. I do think that's irresponsible--for any dog but way more so with one you know has and will bite.

Other than that, my main point in telling that story is that I wish people would consider the impact their dog biting a person can have. Changing/ending a career, disfigurement, for instance.

 

[Sunflowers]

OK, who else keeps returning to this thread just in case the OP came back, thanked people for taking the time to advise, and posted an update?

 

[wolfy dog]

It has happened many times to me as a pet dog trainer that people call me to help them with their biting dog, only to defend her/him and me leaving the session. It's mainly the reason other trainers don't take them on anymore, incl me.The OP doesn't seem to be any different.

 

[cvamoca]

OK, who else keeps returning to this thread just in case the OP came back, thanked people for taking the time to advise, and posted an update?

I do. I keep thinking maybe they just dropped a bomb and left us to sort out the tangle, or to sit and laugh at the idiots trying to help them with a dog, or...there's many reasons. But yet, they've never replied.

 

[Jchrest]

@Cowboysgirl I am thinking of the medical response teams. That’s why they are always tethered in. When I said I know what that means for her is that they will kill her to save me, and I’m doing so, it also puts my life at risk because I’m not getting immediate medical attention. I don’t expect first responders to risk their lives with my dog to save me. I get that, and I’m okay with that. We do muzzle in certain situations, but it’s rarely necessary.

Yes, she has gotten out a total of three times, In the 5yrs I’ve had her, and she is a completely different dog when she is off her property, and interacts with people in a happy go lucky way. Completely different dog when she doesn’t feel the need to protect her environment and humans.

She’s also protected me from an insane man. I’m not going to fault her for that. And when anyone unwelcome comes into my home without knocking or ringing the bell, I don’t feel the slightest bit guilty that she barks and nips at them. They both know better. I want nothing to do with either of them, which is why they just walk in, because they know they wouldn’t never be invited in.

I won’t change any minds here, and I’m okay with that. It took a little over a year with a trainer to get her to where she is today. She’s never attacked or nipped or bitten anyone who was welcomed into my home, or my personal space. She’s 9 now, and rarely even barks when the bell rings or someone knocks. Should I put her to sleep now?

 

[Thecowboysgirl]

@Cowboysgirl I am thinking of the medical response teams. That’s why they are always tethered in. When I said I know what that means for her is that they will kill her to save me, and I’m doing so, it also puts my life at risk because I’m not getting immediate medical attention. I don’t expect first responders to risk their lives with my dog to save me. I get that, and I’m okay with that. We do muzzle in certain situations, but it’s rarely necessary.

Yes, she has gotten out a total of three times, In the 5yrs I’ve had her, and she is a completely different dog when she is off her property, and interacts with people in a happy go lucky way. Completely different dog when she doesn’t feel the need to protect her environment and humans.

She’s also protected me from an insane man. I’m not going to fault her for that. And when anyone unwelcome comes into my home without knocking or ringing the bell, I don’t feel the slightest bit guilty that she barks and nips at them. They both know better. I want nothing to do with either of them, which is why they just walk in, because they know they wouldn’t never be invited in.

I won’t change any minds here, and I’m okay with that. It took a little over a year with a trainer to get her to where she is today. She’s never attacked or nipped or bitten anyone who was welcomed into my home, or my personal space. She’s 9 now, and rarely even barks when the bell rings or someone knocks. Should I put her to sleep now?

I never said you should put her down at all.

I know next to nothing about your dog. The only opinion I have about your dog was the instances I said I feel are irresponsible. If that were my dog, it would be riding in the car in a secure crate, not tethered.

 

[Jchrest]

I’d love to do the crate in the car, but it’s not feasible with 4 dogs. Two are grown adults, two are puppies. I couldn’t fit one of the adult crates into my car, let alone 4 of them. I mean, I guess I could tie them to the roof rack, but that seems counterproductive to keeping both the dogs, and the general public “safe.” I’m pretty positive that any dog just involved in a major vehicle accident is not going to acting themselves regardless if they have a bite history or not. Especially when they see strangers trying to physically pull their owner out. And anytime I have driven by an accident with dogs involved, trained AC officers at at the scene also to handle the dog. Saw it plenty of times on Live PD as well.

Like I said, I’ll change no minds here, and I’m okay with that. Like you said, no one knows my dog but those that interact with my dog. And the progress she has made in the last 5yr is phenomenal. I could easily hand over her leash to anyone, and she is fine. She keeps checking back in with me, but she doesn’t direct any unwanted behaviors on anyone else handling her. For every one person that agrees with me, there will be 10 people that don’t. I get it.

 

[CometDog]

OK, who else keeps returning to this thread just in case the OP came back, thanked people for taking the time to advise, and posted an update?

It so often happens that someone posts and then doesnt return. However, a lot of people will lurk and try to get similar answers to similar problems because they are not the type to post. So it winds up being a bit of a valuable reference thread, if you will.

 

[selzer]

@selzer
"But I remember the Cesar Millan-wannabe who had "rehabilitated" an aggressive Rotty, took it to a mall in Africa, and it full out attacked a small child who was just walking by."

Is there ANY documentation of that event? I was recently arguing with a rescue friend and I had said that CM was the worst thing to happen to problem biter dogs and the people who welcome them into their homes. Would love to cite that...

https://www.lifewithdogs.tv/2011/07/africas-dog-whisperers-dog-attacks-4-year-old-girl-at-mall/

 

[CometDog]

https://www.lifewithdogs.tv/2011/07/africas-dog-whisperers-dog-attacks-4-year-old-girl-at-mall/

Oh wow....so much went wrong there.

 

[Shane'sDad]

OK, who else keeps returning to this thread just in case the OP came back, thanked people for taking the time to advise, and posted an update?

This is just another one of those threads started by a brand new member that I'm skeptical of...is it legit or not ?...I always question when the op doesn't appear to even follow their own thread ??...in any case if the "problem" is real it doesn't say much for the adults in this family that they allowed it to get..to this point....

 

[Thecowboysgirl]

https://www.lifewithdogs.tv/2011/07/africas-dog-whisperers-dog-attacks-4-year-old-girl-at-mall/

Oh wow....so much went wrong there.

So upsetting. I've seen plenty of "trainers" bragging about rehabbing aggressive dogs to be service dogs.

It should never, never, never happen.

If you have to fix (or try to fix) aggression or temperament issues the dog is not service dog material PERIOD

That dog locked onto the kid way before he grabbed her. If his handler had been paying attention at all it could have been prevented

 

[David Winners]

So upsetting. I've seen plenty of "trainers" bragging about rehabbing aggressive dogs to be service dogs.

It should never, never, never happen.

If you have to fix (or try to fix) aggression or temperament issues the dog is not service dog material PERIOD

That dog locked onto the kid way before he grabbed her. If his handler had been paying attention at all it could have been prevented

To make this statement, I believe you need to identify aggression. Is it anytime a dog puts it's mouth on someone? Every dog fails. Anytime a dog barks at someone? Again, not one dog passes. Does intent, motivation, circumstance or drive play into what you call aggression?

Unpredictable dogs, fear aggressive dogs, fearful dogs period, do not belong in the service dog field. A clear headed dog that has some defense when pressed isn't a bod service dog in my opinion. The same, CC, GSD or Mal that could make a great sport/LE dog could make a great service dog for the right handler and with the right upbringing, training and upkeep.

Again, what exactly are aggression issues? Barking defensively while behind a barrier? Unacceptable play biting? Biting a perceived threat with intent? Coming up the leash after a correction? How old is the dog? What training has it had?

It comes down to temperament. If you can't read the dog and understand it's motivation and probable reaction to a given situation or stimulus, you are not the right trainer for the dog. If the consensus of your peers, which should include another service dog trainer or 2, doesn't think the dog is right for the job, it just isn't. If you can't reliably take the dog everywhere and put it into any situation with minor supervision, it's not the right dog for the job.

 

[Shane'sDad]

To make this statement, I believe you need to identify aggression. Is it anytime a dog puts it's mouth on someone? Every dog fails. Anytime a dog barks at someone? Again, not one dog passes. Does intent, motivation, circumstance or drive play into what you call aggression?

Unpredictable dogs, fear aggressive dogs, fearful dogs period, do not belong in the service dog field. A clear headed dog that has some defense when pressed isn't a bod service dog in my opinion. The same, CC, GSD or Mal that could make a great sport/LE dog could make a great service dog for the right handler and with the right upbringing, training and upkeep.

Again, what exactly are aggression issues? Barking defensively while behind a barrier? Unacceptable play biting? Biting a perceived threat with intent? Coming up the leash after a correction? How old is the dog? What training has it had?

It comes down to temperament. If you can't read the dog and understand it's motivation and probable reaction to a given situation or stimulus, you are not the right trainer for the dog. If the consensus of your peers, which should include another service dog trainer or 2, doesn't think the dog is right for the job, it just isn't. If you can't reliably take the dog everywhere and put it into any situation with minor supervision, it's not the right dog for the job.

I agree...the few dogs I dealt with years ago trying to get them adoptable.. came to me with a people aggressive--dog aggressive or "biter" label put on them by some human in most cases that turned out NOT to be true I never knew what had actually happened to get the dogs "labeled" just someones story of what they "thought" had happened...as far as i know of nine different dogs only one ended up not being adopted out and she was a mixed breed female who was afraid of dogs-strangers-noises and her own shadow---she ended up being adopted by us because I was sure in the right circumstance she would bite some one...over time she had bonded to me so she lived the rest of her life with us....so yes she had her demons just not to the point of me saying...you need to put her down...

 

[KacieGSD]

Thank You Everyone!

-Update


Hi everyone! Sorry for not responding and updating you on our situation. As soon as I posted this thread, the system said that the moderators were looking over my discussion and deciding whether or not it was appropriate to post so I realized it would take a long time. Thank you so much for taking the to time help us and reply! Unfortunately, nothing has improved. We tried setting boundaries such as not letting her in our rooms, no praise until she does something praise worthy and constant training. For example, keeping her stimulated and making her do commands and gaining her respect. We also did E-collar training in the house for a couple days as well however on a low range of course around the 10-20 powers. We also walk her every other day also. However, just recently a couple minutes ago my mom finished cooking scrambled eggs and ham for Klio (she didn't have the plate of food in her hand) however, she just approached Klio and greeted her first saying "hi Klio" to check if it was okay and safe for herself and Klio before giving her the food. She held her hand out not reaching over Klio's head and her palms were facing upward leveled low as if you were feeding a horse. However, Klio silently growled and charged at my mom again. My mom got so scared she ran on top of the kitchen table. As you can see my mom is trying really hard to improve her relationship with Klio. Klio has already intimidated and attacked my mom 5 times her lifetime. I don't understand what's wrong with her. I think she might show favoritism? Because we had a bird before named Phoebe and she was a green cheeked Conure and I spent most the time with her, however she suddenly turned so aggressive towards me and was so sweet to my sister. But, one day she got mad at my sister and started to be more affectionate towards me. Do you guys think that may be the case? If it is what'll happen if she starts to dislike me as well?

I also forgot to mention that Klio was just getting over a phantom pregnancy. But how come she not aggressive towards me? A quick history behind Klio and my mom's relationship: My is actually the one that trained Klio and took her to puppy and intermediate obedience training classes ever since she was a puppy. Basically, my mom is the one that spent most of the time with her and devoted her energy into her.

 

[KacieGSD]

Hi everyone I just recently replied however its getting reviewed by the moderators. But a quick update on our situation:

Some info about our household:

We are a pretty active household consisting of 4 members in total including myself. I'm 16 years old, my sister is 19 years old and currently in college so she's quite far away, my dad is 50 and my mom 46 years old. Some traits about ourselves, I'm the one that usually fools around and plays with Klio, my sister also used to do that as well, my dad gives Klio the least amount of attention. Only says hi to Klio when he comes home and that's it. And then... there's my mom. She does everything for Klio. My mom has this side to her where she loves to take care of animals. Ever since she was little she told me she rescued baby birds that fell out of their nests in her hometown where she grew up in. She's a very loving person. So you get the memo, she plays with Klio, trains her, cooks for her and maintains her. We've had Klio since she was 8 weeks old. And that's how long she's been training her for 8 weeks to 6 years old. We (well mostly my mom) took her puppy training and obedience classes and that's when we realized she's highly intelligent.

- recent update

We started to set boundaries for Klio such as not letting her in our rooms, only giving her affection and praise when she does something that pleases us, and we also started to do treat training and also using the E-collar every now and then. We also walk her every other day. We thought she was getting better, however just a couple minutes ago my mom cooked scrambled eggs and ham for Klio. Without the plate in her hand, my mom walked towards Klio and said "Hi Klio" to assure her that "im ok" and also to check if she was safe herself. However, Klio started to silently lift her lips up and charged at my mom again and did the exact same growl/bark and went after my mom until she had to run on top of our kitchen table. I seriously don't understand Klio. She recently started to get over a phantom pregnancy but I don't think that means that dog would go to the lengths and show favoritism? If she does show favoritism what happens if she starts disliking me?

 

[Thecowboysgirl]

So upsetting. I've seen plenty of "trainers" bragging about rehabbing aggressive dogs to be service dogs.

It should never, never, never happen.

If you have to fix (or try to fix) aggression or temperament issues the dog is not service dog material PERIOD

That dog locked onto the kid way before he grabbed her. If his handler had been paying attention at all it could have been prevented

To make this statement, I believe you need to identify aggression. Is it anytime a dog puts it's mouth on someone? Every dog fails. Anytime a dog barks at someone? Again, not one dog passes. Does intent, motivation, circumstance or drive play into what you call aggression?

Unpredictable dogs, fear aggressive dogs, fearful dogs period, do not belong in the service dog field. A clear headed dog that has some defense when pressed isn't a bod service dog in my opinion. The same, CC, GSD or Mal that could make a great sport/LE dog could make a great service dog for the right handler and with the right upbringing, training and upkeep.

Again, what exactly are aggression issues? Barking defensively while behind a barrier? Unacceptable play biting? Biting a perceived threat with intent? Coming up the leash after a correction? How old is the dog? What training has it had?

It comes down to temperament. If you can't read the dog and understand it's motivation and probable reaction to a given situation or stimulus, you are not the right trainer for the dog. If the consensus of your peers, which should include another service dog trainer or 2, doesn't think the dog is right for the job, it just isn't. If you can't reliably take the dog everywhere and put it into any situation with minor supervision, it's not the right dog for the job.

I don't know exactly how to answer that except to say that I think, especially in light of today's service dog issues, more than ever before:

Dogs in that role need to be the absolute best of the best, safest of the safest, and avoiding even the appearance of impropriety so to speak.


Sure any dog can do anything at the end of the day. But many trainers aren't as good as they think they are and on top of that sometimes dogs surprise the good ones.

I'm all for re purposing second hand dogs as SDs if the ppl are knowledgeable and have done everythinf they can to test the dog, know the dog, and feel confident it is as safe as any dog can be in public.

I just do not support anything remotely risky or questionable when it comes to SDs.

I washed a really good dog who passed his health clearances and is basically a safe, great dog, because he is too talkative and could rarely grumble when someone stared him in the eyes. Its too complicated a thing to really explain. Bottom line, I have faith in him but I also know with enough time and miles he would probably eventually be put in one of the millions of difficult sitations SDs deal with and he will growl. And I won't work him in public because I'm not going to be the other end of one more story about an unsuitable service dog. He is a big, pointy eared dog and he will scare someone.

I believe he is a safe, good, stable dog and the times he has growled I think most ppl would agree were not even inappropriate for the breed or situation, but it is inappropriate for that line of work.

He competes all over the place with me and has been in crowds and all sorts of wild situations as a non service dog so I feel I know him pretty well.

These are just my opinions. Mine is that for the sake of every other disabled person who needs access with their dog we have to hold ourselves and our dogs to the very highest standard.

 

[Thecowboysgirl]

"Some defense when pressed"... i am not sure what you mean exactly. Pressed how?

Early in my partnership with my first SD we went thru airport security and they handled her about as rudely and stupidly as you can a dog. I did not know how to advocate for her and I didn't. She was fine, not upset, not offended, just fine.

I had a child sneak up behind us in the grocery store and bounce a balloon off her head. She was fine. Steady as a rock.

Stuff like that happens, sometimes despite the handler's trying to protect the dog.

I want to work with the dog who is least likely of any dog on earth, to lash out at a stupid human in either a display or an actual bite.

 

[JonRob]

"Some defense when pressed"... i am not sure what you mean exactly. Pressed how?

Early in my partnership with my first SD we went thru airport security and they handled her about as rudely and stupidly as you can a dog. I did not know how to advocate for her and I didn't. She was fine, not upset, not offended, just fine.

I had a child sneak up behind us in the grocery store and bounce a balloon off her head. She was fine. Steady as a rock.

Stuff like that happens, sometimes despite the handler's trying to protect the dog.

I want to work with the dog who is least likely of any dog on earth, to lash out at a stupid human in either a display or an actual bite.

Dead on. Thanks for stating it so well.