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well to start with my jasmine will be 11 months old and is a fear barker, still. we have socialized her from the day we got her at 4 months. we really started laying it on to socializing 3-4 times a week 4 months ago. she has gotten better and just graduated basic obidedience and will be starting novice in 2 weeks. if you have read my previous threads you know i have been struggling with this. my trainer has been giving me things to di, but none have which worked for her. they work for th other dogs, but in this case they wont work for her fear barking. the sonic beeper, lime juice or vinigar, work for not jumping up, digging, etc. i know some of you may not agree with squirting lime juic or vinigar in the mouth but it has worked for minor issues. jasmine's fear is major. she doesnt lung or try to attack she just barks and wants to get away. well here is my problem.. i feel up against the wall. i feel like im doing all that i can with her and i feel like im getting nowhere. we go out for socializng trips like i said 3-4 times a week not counting the 5th day for class. we didnt get her during the crucial 8-16 weeks and even though the breeder swears she socializes all of her pups, i find it bs. on her FB pg, she doesnt have a website, she claims the dogs are socialized starting at 7 weeks, are leash trained, housebroken, crate trained, and well socialized with the family i just dont see it. when we went to see them, there were 4 dogs in the backyard, and kennels set up in the back. they were barking and growling. she lets them in and out of the house and they smelled like wet dog. she brought all the paper work out to us and our baby jaz. jasmine was very skinny and afraid. we weighed her about a week or 2 after we got her and she weighed 16lbs. so im sure she was 14 or so lbs when we got her. she hit under the couch for the first 3 weeks. i knew she wouldnt be loving at first but it took a lot longer than expected. she wasnt potty trained nor knew what a bath was despite the breeder telling me she loves water when i asked. i emailed the breeder 3 months ago asking about the lines and what to do about her barking and all she said was you just started socializing now? well, her behavior is to be expected (she mentioned barking and lunging) when you dont properly socialize. after i had told her we have been socializing her since day 1. needless to say, the lady lied, refuses to answer phone calls, emails and when she does, she lies. i know her behavior is partly my fault because we didnt socialize 3-4 times a week for the first 3 months but we made trips 2x a week. i want to know if anything happend to her before we got her and how her parents act. im not getting any feed back and i feel helpless. i am socailizng and training and it doesn't seem like it is enough. is there anything else that i can do? we go to parking lots, the vets office, petsmart, the dog park (occasionally) and class. should i just give up on the breeder ever telling me the truth? could this be genetic?
 

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I hate to say it, but i'ts probably genetic...or at least sounds that way. It seems like she has been having issues since day 1. Most dogs go through a fear period, but this sounds like it's extreme. A lack of socialization in the beginning definitely doesn't help, but dogs with good nerves can overcome behaviors like this fairly quickly.

THis is why I wish people would do their research before supporting breeders like this. If people keep buying dogs from them they will keep on breeding.
 

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Absolutely genetic. Change your tactics!
She is overwhelmed and vinegar, lime juice is not the answer to building her confidence.
Your pup is never going to be a social butterfly so you may as well get use to managing a dog with fear and reactive behaviors.
Teach her with positive methods only and do not overwhelm her. She needs baby steps and if it comes to not bringing her into places and situations where she is out of her comfort zone, then this is her life. You can only do so much for a dog with anxiety.
Get her on a good diet with probiotics/digestive enzymes and supplement with oils/vitamins. They will help her anxiousness to not excel. Or research a raw diet and feed her that!!!

I would also get her into a class for reactive/anxious dogs if possible so you can learn how to manage her personality.

The book Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt is excellent for building confidence/ and exercises that are consistant so the dog is constantly working to relax in situations that are overwhelming.A yahoo group (shyk9's) or similar name, if you google may come up with helpful links. Build her confidence in every way you can!
Good luck, do a search right here, unfortunately there are way too many threads about dogs that aren't stable temperament wise....
 

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i feed her diamond naturals and we put in chicken leg quaters that have been cooked and chopped up. she also gets sweet potatoes and occasionally plain greek yogurt. i will definately look into the book. im not sure if there are classes like that offered in my area but i will check. i am thinking about either finding a behaviorist and having my trainer accompany us at a pet store or at the dog park to see her behavior. we dont use the vinigar for her barking because we figured it would just make i worse. the only thing it was good for was to help her learn "drop it" because she is stingy with her toys. i was also thinking about agility because i hear it builds confidence. would tracking also do that? my trainer teaches both classes and says she would have a knack for tracking. just something fun for us to do together. she doesnt bark at everyone. normally its people who look her in the eye even though i tell them not to. but sometimes if people walk by she will bark also. is there anything else that i can do with her? i will also look into vitamins
 

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I agree with genetics, and genetics are hard wired , while you can't 'change' them you can manage them to a degree.

I wholeheartedly agree with Jane's good advice. You can't "punish" fear, you have to work on reprogramming the behaviors. The book Jane advised is a good one to start with.
 

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I know exactly how you feel. We have the same problem with Tanner, and I know that it is mostly caused by genetics because I know of two other owners of dogs from the same parents at the same breeder with fear aggression. Please take a few minutes to read this post and see if it helps you: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/148995-update-tanner-long.html

That is what my trainer recommended we do, and it has been helping. We have also been really working on his clicker training, and I have the book Click to Calm on order. I know that he will never we all buddy buddy with strangers, but I think that if we keep working with him he'll at least be able to settle down a bit.

It's a lot of work, way more than I anticipated, but he's worth it. Make sure you use all redirection and positive methods or you will just make her behavior worse. Confidence is key.
 

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Oh, hey Onxy - where did you find that book? Barnes & Noble doesn't have it and Amazon was out of stock when I checked. I wonder if it's out of print??
 

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I agree with genetics, and genetics are hard wired , while you can't 'change' them you can manage them to a degree.

I wholeheartedly agree with Jane's good advice. You can't "punish" fear, you have to work on reprogramming the behaviors. The book Jane advised is a good one to start with.
I agree with this too!!

My dog is reactive to both dogs and people. Has been since the day I brought him home. I didn't punish him as a pup but instead worked on counter-conditioning him. I worked with a behaviorist a lot and have seen a TON of improvement (the people in my CGC class didn't know he was reactive until I mentioned it in regards to the being pet by a friendly stranger - he has already passed once at 10 months, waiting to see if he can again at 20 months) but it's something I'll always have to manage. I'm also told that I'll see more improvement when he's fully mature - around 3 years old. You can still do things with your dog, you just have to be really aware. I take Rally, Agility, Flyball, Obedience and Schutzhund classes with him and the vast majority of the time he's fine.
 

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It's partly genetics and partly backyard breeder. Think back to when you went to get her. Four dogs were barking and growling. They smelled pretty bad. Your pup was thin and scared. She didn't socialize any of them, not a single one. What you witnessed was a production line of poorly bred and handled GSDs. Ours wasn't as fearful as yours is, but he is now. He is wonderful in the house, gentle with our five year-old and friendly. But outside, he is a ball of nerves and uncontrollable. Skittish like you wouldn't believe. We rescued him from a breeder who admitted it was her first time breeding. Later she admitted the father was a wolf. Not a fun burden on us and these animals.

Although training will help over time, it is unlikely that your pup will ever fully recover. If this breeder is willing, call her up and ask for the numbers of your pup's littermates. Pretend that you want to set up a play date with them and your pup. If you can manage to get this info out of her, ask the other families if their dogs are like yours. That's what we did and discovered three of our pup's littermates were put down and two had skittish pups. It's a horrifyingly sad predicament to want to save these animals or want to bring a new pup into our homes when breeders are carelessly reproducing "stock" "inventory" a "product."
 

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well to start with my jasmine will be 11 months old and is a fear barker, still. we have socialized her from the day we got her at 4 months. we really started laying it on to socializing 3-4 times a week 4 months ago. she has gotten better and just graduated basic obidedience and will be starting novice in 2 weeks. if you have read my previous threads you know i have been struggling with this. my trainer has been giving me things to di, but none have which worked for her. they work for th other dogs, but in this case they wont work for her fear barking. the sonic beeper, lime juice or vinigar, work for not jumping up, digging, etc. i know some of you may not agree with squirting lime juic or vinigar in the mouth but it has worked for minor issues. jasmine's fear is major. she doesnt lung or try to attack she just barks and wants to get away. well here is my problem.. i feel up against the wall. i feel like im doing all that i can with her and i feel like im getting nowhere. we go out for socializng trips like i said 3-4 times a week not counting the 5th day for class. we didnt get her during the crucial 8-16 weeks and even though the breeder swears she socializes all of her pups, i find it bs. on her FB pg, she doesnt have a website, she claims the dogs are socialized starting at 7 weeks, are leash trained, housebroken, crate trained, and well socialized with the family i just dont see it. when we went to see them, there were 4 dogs in the backyard, and kennels set up in the back. they were barking and growling. she lets them in and out of the house and they smelled like wet dog. she brought all the paper work out to us and our baby jaz. jasmine was very skinny and afraid. we weighed her about a week or 2 after we got her and she weighed 16lbs. so im sure she was 14 or so lbs when we got her. she hit under the couch for the first 3 weeks. i knew she wouldnt be loving at first but it took a lot longer than expected. she wasnt potty trained nor knew what a bath was despite the breeder telling me she loves water when i asked. i emailed the breeder 3 months ago asking about the lines and what to do about her barking and all she said was you just started socializing now? well, her behavior is to be expected (she mentioned barking and lunging) when you dont properly socialize. after i had told her we have been socializing her since day 1. needless to say, the lady lied, refuses to answer phone calls, emails and when she does, she lies. i know her behavior is partly my fault because we didnt socialize 3-4 times a week for the first 3 months but we made trips 2x a week. i want to know if anything happend to her before we got her and how her parents act. im not getting any feed back and i feel helpless. i am socailizng and training and it doesn't seem like it is enough. is there anything else that i can do? we go to parking lots, the vets office, petsmart, the dog park (occasionally) and class. should i just give up on the breeder ever telling me the truth? could this be genetic?
I think so, My sister in law used to lie all the time, even when the truth sounded better. Now she has a daughter who does the same thing.


Seriously, though, you say you did not get her during the 8-16 week period, but she was only 14 pounds when you got her? Am I reading that correctly? How old was she when you got her.

A puppy gets a HUGE burst of confidence when they leave home at 7-10 weeks or so, and have to sink or swim away from the dam and littermates, and with new owners. A dog that goes home later than this, will miss this crucial period.

Socializing puppies is not an easy task, even when you have just one. When you have a litter it can be daunting. I usually have my sister's kids come over, and other people come over, I take dam and pups to the vet, and I do some other stuff with them. Then, hopefully, the bulk of the pups are placed in their new homes. Having two or three puppies for a longer period, means taking each of them places and carefully socializing each of them. No way can someone with three puppies do as much as someone with just one. So, you really have to expect that going into it. But a dog who is got a good make-up should be able to over come that.

Yes an older puppy might have a little more adjustment time, no matter how much socialization the breeder provides. Most of our early socialization happens with the dam there and the litter. Dogs feel safe with their dam and even with just a littermate there. It is not until you get them on their own, when they have to sink or swim. But now the socialization is still done with the breeder, whom the puppy trusts. So, unless you have a line up of people who can actually take the dog for a walk for you, the puppy will still is suddenly placed in a position where he must rely on himself when he goes to his new family.

This sounds pretty extreme, and I think that maybe it is genetic. I would give up on the breeder giving you help. I suggest a book called Help for the Shy Dog by Deborah Wood. It can help.
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
we got her at 16 weeks. you could feel her ribs and her backbone. everything was prominate, but you couldnt see them thru her puppy fur, but when you picked her up she was a bag of bones. when i got her i was faced with a delima (sp) turn around after a 2.5 hr drive and leave her there or take her. at first, i didnt want her because she had too much black for my taste (what i now know is working colors) but i picked her up and held her and well, i couldnt say no. i brought her home and that day took her to petsmart and got all of the things she would need. it took 2 of us to keep her calm for a bath ans it took about 3-4 weeks to potty train and we leash trained her and crate trained her. she is very toy driven and food driven ( i assume its from her father's lines) czech border patrol dogs. we started socailizing slowly to pet stores and vet visits, my parents house and my bf's parents house and around their dogs. at 7 months we took her to the dog park and contiued with the pet stores. 3-4x a week we would go out on outings. at 9 months we started basic obedience. she loves other dogs, but is very submissive to them. when barking at a stranger she doesnt lunge forward she tends to back away. i normally will remove her from the situation because people will bend over and get in her face or put their hand in her face or look her in the eye. im not sure if something terrible happened to her before we got her but she has alwasy been extra alert around other people. but once she gets to know the person like our trainer and our parents she loves them. im just unsure of how to go from here.

on a side note: this wasnt this lady's first litter. she breeds these dogs over and over again. she has a litter online right now when i googled her phone number. i think jasmine was takn off her mother too early, and not fed properly after that. when she was allowed in the house im sure it was a crate and thats how the breeder can call her "crate trained" hen she let the puppy walk around while we talked, she was licking the tops of the grass for water. i have no clue what the inside of the house looked like or where she was kept. im just so frustrated because i think about this everyday and i want answers. if she didn't do the things she claimed, that's fine. i already bought the pup and she's not going back there. if she bred aggressive dogs together well okay, but i wish she would just let up on it already. i just want to know for sure so that i can handle the situation properly.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
well i emailed the breeder and asked her how she socailizes her dogs, since she knows the lines better than i do and if i could get in contact with the litter mates.. i tried to be nice in hopes she will email me back but we will see
 

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sorry to bring up a 10 day old thread - was looking at posts by another poster, and came across this one....

First off, the genetics on the pedigree are a mix of decently bred West German show - dam - and Czech - Sire is all Czech - and older Czech, high aggression, thinner nerved/highly reactive working border patrol lines....so the strength is not there on the bottom - dam - to balance and "level out" the top....and the aggression is there as fear without the strength. Brillo haus Maul was bought in utero by a local lady here in WPA. She jumped out of ASL and had a ton of dogs she bought based on price and had 2 partners of a sort - they traded around males and pups and females - after apx 5 years and tons of pups selling constantly they all went out of breeding. I met quite a few people with dogs from these three - some really nice dogs and some real disasters both temperament and health wise....one guy I know had 4 dogs - bought one - then replacement after replacement....one of his male pups (later euthanized for EPI) was bred without OFAs to give her a litter - all needed for replacement puppies...I knew a couple of very nice dogs from here, but there was no rhyme or reason to what she bought or bred....

You need to forget about what the breeder told you or did. As you say, you have the dog and she is not going back. You need to find someone who you can work with and do alot of conditioning and training and just be vigilant in letting strangers interact with her....Hopefully, the trainer can work with you on how to build her confidence.

Good luck.

Lee
 

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but in this case they wont work for her fear barking. the sonic beeper, lime juice or vinigar, work for not jumping up, digging, etc. i know some of you may not agree with squirting lime juic or vinigar in the mouth but it has worked for minor issues. jasmine's fear is major
You need to look at what you know, and focus on that. Cause while you are smart about what you know.............. (the fear thing) you now need to be just as smart when trying to 'fix' her. Because using a NEGATIVE 'correction' type thing to try to fix something FEAR based will not help... and that's why your are getting so frustrated!

You need to instead start just dealing with the fear to start giving her confidence in herself and in YOU! If she starts really getting that YOU are someone to trust and rely on (instead of someone adding to the stress and fear with sprays and corrections) she will calm and listen instead of just her default of REACT (overreact?).

Have you purchased the DVD 'Calming Signals' by Turid Rugass? TONS of 'dog' stuff for you to learn to look at, see, and then MANAGE much earlier then you probably are now. This is NOT an obedience video (yipppeee! :) ).



Amazon.com: Calming Signals: What Your Dog Tells You: Turid Rugaas: Movies & TV


Another great book along these lines is The Dog Listener by Jan Fennell

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Amazon.com: The Dog Listener: Learn How to Communicate with Your Dog for Willing Cooperation (9780060089467): Jan Fennell: Books#_
 
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