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Discussion Starter #1
I just bought a Belgian for show, at 7 weeks, felt testicles, at 8 weeks vet felt them but said 1 was undecended. I got him at 9 weeks, both down. A friend also felt them, but they were hard to find, since then they have pulled back up and are hard to find. He is now 11 weeks, I am torn, he is exactly what I have been looking for, except for this. He has great temperment, and should excel at obedience and herding.

Now history, this is his sire's first litter, but his sire has 8 litters no problems. His mom had no issues with her brothers. BUT the dam of Timber, had an oops litter when she bred her dad, 2 males, both with only 1 testicle, both neutered. That is the only issue that sire had of 3 litters. I wasn;t worried at first as I don't breed, but do like to show.

Any comments would be appreciated, most in the hopefully things to try to bring them down?? Would he have pulled them up because he lives with an intact and fairly dominant male GS?? Could that be why they have gone back up?? How long could they play yoyo before I have to give up and accept they aren't coming back? Is there anything I can do to encourage them back or should I return him?? I already love him and have started quite a bit of work with him. HELP PlEASE
 

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I only know that they can go up and down until the ring closes.

Good luck.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
when does the ring close?? I haven't bred and have had some conflicting info from don't worry til 6 months to return NOW. i won't breed so don't care for that, but at what age does the ring close?? Can you tell when it closes?? Does the normal boy's go up and down?? or is this weird?? and hereditary issuess??

Thanks for the answer, but please add more info, I truly know none of this as I've not bred nor ever had this issue.
 

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Whenever I have had males, I never worried about the testicles and they always descended without problem. But my friend had a leonberger litter and the male went up and down for a while, and then it stayed up. they neutered him

I think it is pretty common for them to go up and down. I know that to provide a proper temperature for the sperm, they hang lower away from the body when it is warm, and they get up closer when it is cold, not sure where it is where you are, been having some cold weather? I wonder if you raised the temperature a little if that would help. I don't know. That really would suggest puppies obtained in the winter would have more of an issue, and I have never heard that.

The worst case scenario is not showing. Is this a deal breaker for you? Do you have something in the contract that says both testicles will decend? -- a must for a pup showed for show.

I have heard of a dog having a testicle drop at eleven months, but I would be tearing my hair out by then. Ya never know how many of those stories are true.

I think the ring closes at different times for different dogs. Kind of like waiting for the ears to go up, it is just one of those things you have to bite your nails over.
 

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Sometimes the more you look for them, the more the go up, so stop checking. Looking for them won't help.

Balto was totally cryptorchid. His never came down. Too bad because he's an awesome dog. Good for me because that's the only reason I got him. The breeders in Canada who were going to buy him didn't want him anymore.
 

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I have two friends with cryptorchid puppies: one with a dobe and one with a belgian. Both were supposed to be breed dogs, but not any more. Neither of them had both testicles at 8 weeks and they are both over 8 months of age and they are still one nut pups. Both of my friends were given the option of returning the pup for a replacement, but how do you return a pup once you are bonded?

I have never gotten a pup that didn't have both descended at 8 weeks and make a point of checking before I take the little guy home. Not that I am ever going to breed my dog, but because the neuter surgery is much more expensive, involved, and you have to have it done.

I have heard of the the testicles coming down as late as a year, but the truth is that the longer it's missing, the less chance of its showing up.
 

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It is still very early for them to stay down. If you bought (in your contract) a show quality puppy, then it will matter. What does the contract say about when they need to be down (stay down) by?
 

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Dante's (malinois) went up and down a little, but after 5 mo they were both down and stayed down (he's 9 months now). For the most part, they were down, but every now and then one would slip back up.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
thanks everyone, the problem is I did buy a show pup, but once they walk in the door, I love them adn they stay.. Hr has super temperment and being socialized with my 2GS mean he will be super stable, which he is already, we will do performance if that is all we can do, I just never thought of a problem. All males I've ever had had 2 but I didn't pay much attention either. So this yoyoing is concerning, sure hope they drop and stay down, at least I now know it is fairly common and he is young enough I needn't panic, just fall more in love with him
 

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the one yo-yo ing can be "tacked down" until the inguinal ring is too small for it to pop up....no big deal...

someone I used to know had a litter that two were yo-yos....I felt both pups with 2, was at the vet when checked at 8 weeks, both had 2....one got tacked down, the other one (a coat) had two when sold...and a year and a half later the buyer called to complain he couldn't breed the dog (on limited papers!!!) because he had one testicle! I was there when he was sold (and tried and tried to talk the breeder out of this sale!!!!) and he had two, and the limited WAS in the contract and explained!

Lee
 

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Check for them with the puppy laying on his back. if you find both of them, try to work them toweard the sack. if you can get them in the sack, then hold on to them gently and turn the puppy over. Hold onto them for a short time then let the puppy go. I had a pup many years ago that the vet said I wouldnt get the testicle to drop, but I did!
 

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This is my problem with breeding only perfect dogs....Andaka and Wolfstraum, if both of you have been successful with manual manipulations to get the testicle down or get it to stay down....then my question is should this male be bred???? The manual manipulation is not going to be passed to the puppies....the genetic imprint of the dog will. So if we should not breed a dog with an undescended testicle, yet with our intervention the testicle either came down or remained down....is this a breedworthy male???Just curious as to how people see this!
 

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If you have to put the ears up, should you breed them?

Would you pass up a dog with a super temperament because he has been known to throw the occasional cryptorchid pup, and breed to a passable dog who is not known for the issue?

I guess it goes on what you are breeding for. A show dog needs for them to have dropped.

If there were only two dogs on the planet, floppy ears or retained tesical will win out over so-so or passable temperament. But if there were only two dogs left on the planet, I had better breed to both.

Is there not enough dogs with credentials and testicles out there though? Should we breed a dog with a known genetic problem if there are dogs that can produce what we are hoping to accomplish without the problem? Some things are linked if it became impossible to find a dog that is exemplary in one area without some history of retained testicles, it would depend on the circumstances.
 

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Again Wolfstraum and Andaka,...smile....if the male intervention allows the dog to have them down at two years old, then the dog would have "credentials", but is the same dog that might not have credentials if the intervention wasn't taken??? How do you view this situation?....smile!!
 

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Check for them with the puppy laying on his back. if you find both of them, try to work them toweard the sack. if you can get them in the sack, then hold on to them gently and turn the puppy over. Hold onto them for a short time then let the puppy go. I had a pup many years ago that the vet said I wouldnt get the testicle to drop, but I did!
I bet this works better than blowing in their nose. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Sadly I did return the pup, the vet said the problem was the scrotum wasn't developed right, so there wasn't room for the testicles. He will now go to a performance home. I had really wanted a dog to show, I have 2 German Shepherds, the male not good enough for showing, the female, well I will spay her as I don't like heats, and so wanted one I could occasionally show as a special. And the Belgians can be shown easier by the owner, and so was getting a Terv male. i will find another with the high trainability and stable temperment.

As far as this being a genetic problem, which it is, I don't really care as no matter what mine will never be bred, I won't stud a dog, unless the breeder has a specific reason and she wants to use him, but only then. I will not do it, my dogs are my enjoyment and breeding is just not it for me. Thanks for all the answers, definitely a difficult decision, he was super smart and stable.
 

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I don't want people to think I am targeting Wolfstraum and Andaka, I have respect for them, but this is something I think that is part of understanding that exterior knowledge of the dog is not only not enough but sometimes misleading. Like breeding to an OFA excellent dog that was in a litter of three other dogs that were dysplastic. How many people make breeding decisions based solely on the certs and the appearance???? Then we wonder why things like hips and testicles continue to plague this breed in such high numbers. Just food for discussion.
 

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I am so sorry to hear that you had to return him. that has to be so hard. I wish you luck in your search for the one for you.
 

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As far as this being a genetic problem, which it is, I don't really care
I would think you would care, because being that it can be genetic, perhaps the sire of your pup shouldn't have been bred if this was a known issue. Therefore you wouldn't have had to go through this whole experience and subsequently return the pup....
 
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