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Hi guys, I took my boy to training this morning and when the trainer saw the prong he told me to take it off. He then told me at the end that didn't agree with it and that the choker is much better. I told him the story about 100 dogs being autopsied and how the choker damaged about 98% of them and the prong not really. He said that proper corrections are safe but then if 48 out of 50 messed up who's to say I wont either...

He also said the prong is only used for correcting a certain problem where as the choker is good for everything. He said that the prong can build drive which would mean control would be an issue. in my opinion my current dog will still have lowish drive when he is at his max.

He then hinted that they, the commitee, were going to have to talk about it because it isn't allowed in KUSA(kennel union SA) and maybe should not be allowed at the club either.

Advice?
 

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If you go up to the top of the page, and into 'My Stuff' then 'My Profile' you can add your GENERAL location that will show up with your avatar in every post. That way someone may be able to recommend hints and suggestions in the future relative to where you live (in the world even).

I'd also look for another trainer though....
 

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I would look for a trainer that emphasized positive methods and no correction collars - or at least positive methods and the prong collar.

Prongs aren't allowed at AKC events in the US either. Of course during events you loose points if you use a leash correction in the ring and if you use a hard correction I think you are disqualified. It's been a few years since we've been in a ring so it might be you are disqualified if you use any leash correction. The only collars you could use here when I competed were plain flat leather or fur-saver which is a choke like collar with 1 1/2 inch or so links.

AKC people use all sorts of training aids/collars/techniques at their training clubs - prongs, chokes --- some use positive methods, a lot use compulsion training. You weren't supposed to use corrections on the show grounds but I've seen some really go over the top.

Like others have said look for a new trainer -- I'd look for one that used mostly positive methods if not entirely positive methods...
 

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Craig,
I have been through the samething here in Central MA. There
are no training facilty here that will allow prongs being used.
One place insisted DaKota use a choke. Those do not faze her one bit. She will choke herself to death one one. Other use the treat or toy motive. She will not take those out of her home at all. We've tried all kinds of things. What I did was alot of reading here & asking tons of questions. I trained her myself, in my yard. It worked well. She recieved her C.G.C as she is only our beloved pet.
I also wanted to add that we did try GLs too with no results.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I know that a new trainer would probably be best but it's the only rottweiler club in cape town that does IPO. I think in all his years of training he's only title his shepherd in sch1 and his sch2 score were 59,57 and 0 so i'm thinking twice about taking his advice. I don't have high prospects for this dog wrt working but when I hopefully get my gsd I definitly wont take it near that club, maybe for socialisation though.

When he mentioned that KUSA doesn't allow prongs I said that's because they are uninformed. he wasn't impressed lol.

I think as long as I keep researching and finding out more about how succesful people train I can keep a level head and know when he's talking [email protected] I'll definitly learn a lot from the GSD club nearby and maybe teach him a thing or too.
 

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Originally Posted By: Craig88 He said that the prong can build drive which would mean control would be an issue. in my opinion my current dog will still have lowish drive when he is at his max.Advice?
He trains SchH with a CHOKE!!!??? WOW! No wonder he's getting scores in the 50's, he does not know how to work a dog in drive. Yes, with strong dogs a little bit of compulsion with a prong (not taking their head off, just corrections) will build tension which the dog will channel into prey drive for the ball in OB and the sleeve in protection but that's GOOD. That's how you get the proper picture.

If there is anyone else near you that trains SchH try them out, but due to your location you may be stuck. Train at home with the prong and post in the SchH section further down the board for advice.
 

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A prong is more effective and less harmful then a choke collar. A quick jerk with a prong, high and tight on the neck usually works. The choke collar, with my dogs they only gagged.
 

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Another thought is to buy some DVDs (I'm such a neandrethal (sp) that I have video tapes) Ones I like are Godfried Deldei's Schutzhund I & II - Didn't shell out for III. You can also keep an eye out for seminars of international and national trainers coming to your area.
 

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I think you'll have a hard time finding a KUSA affiliated club that still uses a prong collar. Too many trainers around here think they're evil torture devices of some kind - and yet the way I see some of them use a slip/chock chain makes me question their logic.
The training club I go to won't allow anyone to even step onto the field if their dog has a prong on.
(I have strong views about certain things at the training club I attend, so I just stick with my fellow clicker trainers
)

I think the GSD (Federation) clubs still use/allow prongs, so hopefully you'll have better luck finding a knowledgeable trainer at one of those clubs (there are 4 or 5 in Cape Town I think)
 

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Believe me, I train my dogs. It is a different style of training and in order to get the type of enthusiastic and powerful performance desired you need to train in drive. An exercise is taught positively, and once a dog understands what I expect he is corrected for not living up to those expectations. I never ever read anything about an e-fence in this post and I don't exactly know how you could train with one. I do use prongs and e-collars in training.

I know this thread was not posted in the Schutzhund section but that is specifically what he asked about. Have you ever seen this type of training?
 

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Originally Posted By: doggiedadprongs, e-collars, e-fence, why not train your dog and stop depending on some device.
Erm....that's not quite how it works. Watch a SchH trial....the dogs are not wearing prongs (and for the most part, no collars). On the other hand, I can't tell you how many threads I've read with statements like "My dog walks perfectly on a loose leash as long as his prong is on" or "the prong collar stopped my dog from pulling", statements from pet owners, not SchH people, who ARE dependent on the prong to manage the dog. So you are right about one thing, no one should depend on the prong or any tool, but it can be a valuable tool for training.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I brought up the prong collar with my future gsd club and they all use it and none of them use the choker.

Zeus, when you say the choker is the worst for training are you refering to just the protection stage or the obedience too? He has 20 odd years experience in working and breeding dogs so i'm still struggling to believe how he just has no real knowledge on the choker. I've hardly been doing this for more than a year but I often have to question his advice.

The only thing useful about this club is the bite work which I wouldn't be able to do on my own, although he's not the most spectacular at the protection one, and the networking for studding him out. People have been showing a lot of interest in him lately.
 

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Originally Posted By: doggiedadprongs, e-collars, e-fence, why not train your dog and stop depending on some device.
Gee, sounds like you could make millions as a "toolless trainer".

Please share with us how you train a hard GSD without the use of a correction tool. Do you sit them down and have long heart to heart talks about proper obedience and social behavior? Perhaps several hours of Lassie and Rin Tin Tin episodes are enough to properly inspire?

Have you ever offered a treat as a reward for obedience to a command? Guess what - that's a tool. Do you own a leash and collar of any kind? - Tools. Crate train? TOOL.

ANY tool can be highly useful, and all have the potential to be abused. Stop passing judgment. I personally agree with others that prong collars and e-collars are much more humane and effective than a choker.

To the OP - I would find another trainer, who is more open to working with the tools that you have selected. If a trainer can only teach using one tool and one specific method then in my opinion, that trainer is worthless. That would be like a teacher who cannot read the different needs of students and make subtle adaptations to the curriculum accordingly.
 

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Originally Posted By: Craig88Zeus, when you say the choker is the worst for training are you refering to just the protection stage or the obedience too? He has 20 odd years experience in working and breeding dogs so i'm still struggling to believe how he just has no real knowledge on the choker. I've hardly been doing this for more than a year but I often have to question his advice.
I don't like a choker for anything. O.K., maybe you could use it as a throw chain but that's it. The main issue that I and many others have with the choker is that it is impossible to administer a well timed correction.

It sounds to me like the OB he trains is not in drive, or at least not a high level of drive. The end result of this is a plodding unhappy picture from the dog. Training in drive takes a lot more work and a more skilled handler to control but the end result is an amazing picture in which the dog is happy to be working. A strong dog in drive would not even feel a choker correction until they were ready to pass out. When training properly you have 3 seconds to be clear to the dog when giving a correction (ideally 1.5 seconds) and I don't know how to make a choker correction register to my dogs in that time frame. It's hard enough with a prong, which is why an e-collar is used later in OB so much.
 

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Sounds like dog training Max!


Drive is so important to what you want to achieve. You cannot get a picture like this (tail high, power, focus and attitude with the dog actively performing) without drive that you can "cap" and put into the work.

 

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Nice working dog!!!

I train position with attention (heel) using high reward but when I know the dog understands I will use correction when he decides he can make his own choice not to. And I will use a prong for that.

I do AKC obedience but heel work is heel work whether you are heeling in the AKC ring or foosing on the SchH field.

I do not do protection so cannot comment on that but I want my dog to "drive" into work no matter what work I am asking of him.

There are some places where prongs are no longer legal too.
 
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