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Ive been doing training with my pup since 8 weeks,she almost 17 weeks now. She learned sit and down and come using treats and Micheal Ellis dvd's. A couple weeks ago we started what is called puppy class but its strictly obedience. We all enter the ring and do heels, sits , down, recalls, and mix that up a bit. She does great at the class, sits hard, elbows hit the floor for downs, and heels well with treats leading her. And ive ramped up home training with sitting to cross thresholds or out the crate, and she great at staying with food on the floor till I say yes or ok. Also weve been doing outs of tugs since the start, I never had to force her mouth open, just hold the toy very still.

I went to a shutzhund club this week and the trainer wants me to go backwards and just drive into me instead of asking her to do anything. He asked me to show obedience and when she paused a second to sit he just had me feeding her. Also he got a bit upset that I asked her to out the tug because he "wants to set her up for success and not failure"
Any experienced opinions? Im probably never gonna get deep into shutzhund sport but titling is a possibility.
 

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A lot of the puppy work in Schutzhund is developing drive, attitude, engagement, enthusiasm for work. Precise, controlled obedience will come later, as an extension of that drive and enthusiasm. Pups needs to feel that they are in charge of the game, and making things happen. This builds confidence in them. Your control is subtle, timed to make it look like pup made the decisions on her own, and made the right decision. This also builds confidence for decision making and working at a distance from you.

For example, making him out the tug soon after winning it, may give her the message that she wasn't supposed to have it in the first place. This doubt may translate into soft, shallow grips. By letting her possess the tug, you making believe you want it, but not strong/fast enough to get it back from her, will build her satisfaction on having and owning the tug - increases its value, making her work harder to get it next time.

Pet obedience classes are great for learning how to train a dog, but the aim is simply to teach certain exercises and to have the dogs comply. Schutzhund is developing a working mentality. Follow your Schutzhund trainer's advice and way of working. Some of this may not make much sense right now, but there is method to all that madness, and you will get to see the results down the line.
 

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Your trainer starting you over is not un common. Every trainer has a plan and they need to set you up correctly for their plan. Also pet type obedience is not the same as competition obedience. So even though you were using Mike Ellis videos doesn't mean that it was done correctly (your still doing yourself and could have cause issues you didn't even know could be issues). If your foundation is there then your puppy will move on quickly so don't worry about it. As long as you trust this trainer that is.

Outing your dog can cause it to come out of drive. When training puppies and young dogs we want them in as high as drive as possible. That's all I can think of at the moment on your situation. Oh and I'm not saying to have not taught an out yet.
 

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A lot of the puppy work in Schutzhund is developing drive, attitude, engagement, enthusiasm for work. Precise, controlled obedience will come later, as an extension of that drive and enthusiasm. Pups needs to feel that they are in charge of the game, and making things happen. This builds confidence in them. Your control is subtle, timed to make it look like pup made the decisions on her own, and made the right decision. This also builds confidence for decision making and working at a distance from you.

For example, making him out the tug soon after winning it, may give her the message that she wasn't supposed to have it in the first place. This doubt may translate into soft, shallow grips. By letting her possess the tug, you making believe you want it, but not strong/fast enough to get it back from her, will build her satisfaction on having and owning the tug - increases its value, making her work harder to get it next time.

Pet obedience classes are great for learning how to train a dog, but the aim is simply to teach certain exercises and to have the dogs comply. Schutzhund is developing a working mentality. Follow your Schutzhund trainer's advice and way of working. Some of this may not make much sense right now, but there is method to all that madness, and you will get to see the results down the line.
This was said much better than I did.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Ive done out as a game, I hold it still and say out and when she does I say yes and then move the tug and its more funtime/repeat. I was definitely messing up by using the word out for bad things like poop as well. Ill use leave it more consistently for that kind of stuff.
 

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why do i see humor in usuing the word "out" in conjunction
with the word "poop" ?

Ive done out as a game, I hold it still and say out and when she does I say yes and then move the tug and its more funtime/repeat. I was definitely messing up by

>>>>> using the word out for bad things like poop<<<<

as well. Ill use leave it more consistently for that kind of stuff.
 

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That's great that she has a consistent and reliable out already, and kudos for training it in a fun, positive manner. That is a very good way to start things off.

That she outs on command, is a good thing. But don't out her too often in the early stages of bitework. It will create a chewy, insecure bite. Let her savor the victory of getting her tug!
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Well, weve since quit the regular obedience class, too akc oriented. We went to our second shutz tonight. The last time the trainer didnt really want to see her doing obedience and told me to have her drive into my hand. Tonight we did that a bit to me she seemed focused, and then I asked for some sits and downs. I guess she didnt hit the floor a few times and I kinda got yelled at for free treats.
It was goofy because it all worked out different than at home. At home I only give one tiny treat at a time and require butt or elbows on the floor for sit and down. Were low on treats so today I used kibble which she loves but I was feeding in bulk vs usual. At the training I overfed looking for her to drive into my hand and such and wasnt strict on withholding until the move was performed because last time he didnt want strictness.
The original title still applies.
 

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I did one training class that was very treat focused. Riley learned well and I'm not against using treats. However, our second training class was done with no treats. Only positive verbal rewards and pets. Also, verbally letting them no they aren't doing things right. Not by yelling, just by sound or tone. I actually liked the non treat based better.

Have you tried training without the treats? Or is schutzhund treat based?
 

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I would have the pup do 'ups' 'forwards' or 'backs' depending the position for the treat after you've marked it.
That way she still has to work for the reward, but it isn't jackpotted unwillingly.
You can also have her chase after it, as you wag your hand around to drive in or up to you for a treat. I still do this when I use food rewards to keep up the enthusiasm. Don't let her take treats from the floor unless you are using a target plate.

When teaching exercises, food is great, but it can flatten out the excitement on some dogs.
And then again, food is good for dogs that can't handle the excitement of a ball/tug reward....they go over threshold and the lesson learned is lost.
I'm all for verbal or patting up type reward/praise, because essentially you want the dog to work for you, not the treat/reward. And 'you' are all you have when it comes to trial day.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
He wants me to build her drive into a frenzy. He said to use food as a toy etc, I can do that. A couple months ago my fingers were raw meat and using food as a toy was over with. Now she knows how to take it nicely so I gotta get her moving and then drive into my hand. Im also very calm in my obed which the shutz trainer told me will never quite do it for the shutz I have to express more energy.
 

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Maybe you will get better advice from the leerburg dvds.

Your trainer shouldn't be making you or your dog feel uncomfortable. Has he got the patience to explain his methods to you or is he just expecting you to read his mind? Does he know what he is taking about. Has he got some sch titles etc?
 

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I agree with your trainer...build drive and cap it. Though usually this is done with tugging, not food. I use food to teach something, not to build drive. As soon as your pup is done teething, I'd start transitioning to a ball on string or tug, use food only to re-enforce an exercise.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
My girl has what looks like good prey drive, she chases rags, toys etc. and doesnt let go But we built all that, she had little to start, she doesnt destroy her toys at all, and doesnt chase animals, there was a cat in our yard and she sat there. She neveer seems to get too excited at toys to listen, in fact shes good at obedience and down stays while I walk away swinging the bite rag on the ground. She was all food drive, and still goes nuts for food and can get whiney and stuff.
The trainer saw her prey and likes it alot, he was talking about us transitioning to toys instead of food. But I still feel her highest drive is food.
 
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