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Discussion Starter #1
had my pup on wellness but i wanted to try a more protien focused kibble so i picked up a bag of TOTW high prarie today,now im worrying about the cal/pho levels, are they too high?? or should i stick with it? any of you guys fed this food at this age? thanks for any info!:confused:
 

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TOTW doesn't list the maximum levels of cal/phos in their kibble, just the minimums. However, the vast majority of grain-free kibbles are too high in those minerals for growing pups. I wouldn't feed it to a dog that was still growing. If you search through the "feeding our puppy" section several other people have said the same thing.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
ya i had seen that, .5% can make a big difference huh? i believe totw is around 2.1% for calcium
 

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No - I would not feed TOTW to a dog under 18 months because of the amount of calcium.

If you want to go with a grain free, high protein kibble, go with Orijen LBP.
 

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ya i had seen that, .5% can make a big difference huh? i believe totw is around 2.1% for calcium
It makes a big enough difference where Wellness will flat out tell you not to feed their Core formula to puppies because of that .5% difference.
 

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It makes a big enough difference where Wellness will flat out tell you not to feed their Core formula to puppies because of that .5% difference.
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This food has been on the market for years and years. In fact the company began testing these foods on GSD's, Dobies & Bouviers in the 1970's. I have yet to hear a complaint.

No official body has yet to determine the upper limit of calcium on large or giant breed dogs. The data is fuzzy at best.

Bad breeding, injury and stress on the joints at a young age is probably responsible for many more orthopedic problems than high calcium. I routinely see people running young dogs too hard. Even playing fetch with a tennis ball to long can cause problems.

I am not convinced all the diet paranoia is warranted unless you are the one making the profit.
 

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There have been studies done where growing large-breed pups were feed much higher-than recommended amounts of calcium (I think it was around 3-4%) and it was correlated with increased incidence of hypertrophic osteodystrophy, osteochondritis dissecans, and hip dysplasia. So far as I'm aware there have been no studies to determine what the safe cutoff point is, but why risk it?
 

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This food has been on the market for years and years. In fact the company began testing these foods on GSD's, Dobies & Bouviers in the 1970's. I have yet to hear a complaint.

No official body has yet to determine the upper limit of calcium on large or giant breed dogs. The data is fuzzy at best.

Bad breeding, injury and stress on the joints at a young age is probably responsible for many more orthopedic problems than high calcium. I routinely see people running young dogs too hard. Even playing fetch with a tennis ball to long can cause problems.

I am not convinced all the diet paranoia is warranted.
Wow is that a lot of calcium and calories per cup. Can't say I've ever heard of any complaints about this food either, but I've never even heard of this food to tell you the truth. Ingredients look decent.

Though you're probably right that there isn't anything set in stone saying the exact amount of calcium that's too much for a large breed puppy... why not stack the deck in your dogs favor? Calcium does promote bone growth and rapid bone growth can cause bone abnormalities, so why not feed a formula with less calcium than more?

When I make recommendation, i'm recommending to others what i would do with my puppy. With my puppy, i'm not taking chances and feeding him more calcium than he needs. Especially with a breed where HD, ED, and pano are all very common issues. I want a food with less calcium, while still a good, balanced diet to help promote a nice slow growth.
 

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There have been studies done where growing large-breed pups were feed much higher-than recommended amounts of calcium (I think it was around 3-4%) and it was correlated with increased incidence of hypertrophic osteodystrophy, osteochondritis dissecans, and hip dysplasia. So far as I'm aware there have been no studies to determine what the safe cutoff point is, but why risk it?
Yes it was above 3%, and that is kind of my point because I have never seen a food that was above the link I posted, which has been proven safe over a long period of time. The other point is that in most cases you will feed much less of the foods with higher calcium, so in the end the amount of calcium consumed is probably the same or less.

Again, a whole industry has been built around a fear with very little basis. I have fed many foods over the years and I have never ever seen a puppy grow faster on one or the other.

I can tell you that I can correlate orthopedic problems with people castrating and spaying too early. I would bet anything that many of the problems seen in some breeds is related too that. It has been proven that males castrated too early will grow taller, be heavier and have much weaker joints and soft tissue than intact males.

I have yet to see a study using intact males.
 

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Wow is that a lot of calcium and calories per cup. Can't say I've ever heard of any complaints about this food either, but I've never even heard of this food to tell you the truth. Ingredients look decent.

Though you're probably right that there isn't anything set in stone saying the exact amount of calcium that's too much for a large breed puppy... why not stack the deck in your dogs favor? Calcium does promote bone growth and rapid bone growth can cause bone abnormalities, so why not feed a formula with less calcium than more?

When I make recommendation, i'm recommending to others what i would do with my puppy. With my puppy, i'm not taking chances and feeding him more calcium than he needs. Especially with a breed where HD, ED, and pano are all very common issues. I want a food with less calcium, while still a good, balanced diet to help promote a nice slow growth.
I don't use Abady because many of my pointers have beards and it is a granular product and gets caught but I can tell you thousands of GSD's have been raised on it. It is widely known as very low bloat risk diet.

I am suprised you haven't living in CT because it is widely available in New England.

Robert Abady was a very polarizing guy but he designed an amazing diet that has more meat in it than anything on the market, and has been that way for over 30 years, years before anyone cared. He also sold the first raw diet, which is still on the market today.

When you buy a big box of that stuff, it is made to order.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
thanks alot people, i just returned the TOTW and got orijen adult formula which has a min of 1.5% to max 1.7% calcium, same as their large breed puppy formula, was just gonna get canidae but i decided to take the hit and spend a few more bucks. never thought there was so much debate behind dog foods! it really is hard to choose but we all want the best for our pups.
 

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Well as you can see there are a lot of differing opinions on whether to feed a puppy formula or not- I never have until now. Stosh and Uschi were both started on Nature's variety which is grain-free and an 'all life stages' food- no puppy formula. Uschi has no problem with it, Stosh didn't really like it much so I've added Orijen LBP to his food and he LOVES it. He's doing so much better with it, lots of energy, lovely poop and best of all he likes to eat it. But I've heard a lot of great things about TOTW, they just don't have a puppy formula. So I'd say it's up to you, try them and see which works best. No one brand is best for every dog
 

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Since Orijen has a large breed puppy formula available, I fed it rather than the adult food. Of course, the Orijen company did explain there was a difference in the nutrient spread that is not as discernable on the labelling between the adult and LB puppy.
I fed the LB breed puppy until about 16 months old.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Since Orijen has a large breed puppy formula available, I fed it rather than the adult food. Of course, the Orijen company did explain there was a difference in the nutrient spread that is not as discernable on the labelling between the adult and LB puppy.
I fed the LB breed puppy until about 16 months old.
ya i was looking at that, looked almost identical from what i could tell, considering that its 40% protien do you guys think its a scam to say puppies dont need that much protien?. they are omnivores, but the natural diet they would have would still be primarily protien with certain berries grubs etc that they might eat in the wild
 

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The company veterinarian for TOTW answered my inquiry on this topic, and stated "NO" it is not an appropriate food for a large breed puppy.
I posted the exact excerpt a few times on here, but it has been months.
 

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Again, a whole industry has been built around a fear with very little basis. I have fed many foods over the years and I have never ever seen a puppy grow faster on one or the other.
QUOTE]


The irony in that statement considering the worse the food the better they sell, eh?
 

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Puppies especially need protein. What they don't need are foods with inappropriate levels of calcium phos.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
The company veterinarian for TOTW answered my inquiry on this topic, and stated "NO" it is not an appropriate food for a large breed puppy.
I posted the exact excerpt a few times on here, but it has been months.
yes i emailed them today as well and im sure ill get the same answer. they should address that issue with another formula. anyone have links to actual proof of higher calcium effect on our breed?
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Puppies especially need protein. What they don't need are foods with inappropriate levels of calcium phos.
so orijen adult should be perfectly fine for my pup?
 
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