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This is something I was wondering about. There is much discussion on breeding dogs having titles to help determine temperament, stability, and breeding worthiness. What are the titles you would as a breeder look for in a dog you would breed. I have copied some info from the AKC and Schutzhund sites on a couple of basic titles for reference. I personally would prefer a SCH or IPO title but some are ok with Obedience titles only.

Canine Good Citizen (CGC):
the CGC Program is designed to reward dogs who have good manners at home and in the community.

Rally:
The main objective of rally is to produce dogs that have been trained to behave in the home, in public places, and in the presence of other dogs, in a manner that will reflect positively on the sport of rally at all times and under all conditions.

CD:
Novice Class demonstrates good canine companion skills such as heeling, both with and without a leash, coming when called, standing for a simple physical examination, and staying in both a sit and a down position with a group of dogs.
In the Novice Class, dogs earn an AKC Companion Dog (CD) title after receiving three qualifying scores under two different judges.

BH:
A passerby will run by the team fairly closely or even cut the team off. The dog must not show aggression or lose composure. Then a bicyclist will overtake the team from behind, passing the team from the side of the dog. The bicyclist will ring his bicycle bell or honk a horn several times in passing.
Other diversions such as train or car sounds will often be used in this exercise. Opening an umbrella above or near the dog is a common test.
 

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as a buyer i like knowing the parents are titled and passed all of the
medical test because knowing the parents are titled and sound means
my pup will probably be sound and easy to train as well. plus i like
the fact that i can lay down the snub when in conversation. you
know when someone compliments your dog or ask "where did you
get your dog" you can casually say " Pou Pou is a blah blah dog.
i bought him from tah tah. he's an import." most people won't know
what you're talking about but you can still say it, bragging rights.
 

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Like all absolutes, there is always an exception here and there....

I have done and have had done AKC and IPO/Sch titles on my dogs....I bred one female without a title, and titled her afterwards...she produced the most consistant litter I have had....almost exactly what I was looking for with the exception of depth of pigment....

I have a 4 year old female that I have done alot of work with, she lives with friends who I could not deny her to at 8 months old due to personal circumstances, even though I own her and plan to breed her...they meant well, but did not follow with keeping up training, I had a disabling car accident, and she NEEDS to be bred because of her age....she has been worked by several well respected helpers...on various fields, she is show rated and hip/elbow certifed....I will breed her without titles and still hope to do some down the road as I recently started with a new helper who is very good....

You have to look at the total picture....a breeder consistantly breeding titled dogs who does have the experience to make an exception, or a breeder importing all the breeding stock which changes on a rotating basis, or a breeder whose breeding stock is bought as pups from titled parents but never does anything but breed or a breeder using homegrown stock with no credentials in sight for generations....

The breeder making the exception with an untitled dog may be very preferable to that just importing, breeding and reselling and importing another batch of females


So there are several scenerios where I would consider the exceptional untitled female preferable!

Lee
 

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Yes, I know there are people around here that breed and/or buy dogs that don't come from titled lines or temperament tests. To me if a breeder isn't working their dogs in SOME avenue, I just really don't think they can say that they really know what they've got...no offense, just my opinion from experience. I also don't think that the grandparents being titled holds a lot of weight if the parents of the litter aren't. I won't go to a breeder who speaks of wonderful grandparents, but then doesn't work the parents. Plenty of non-breed worthy dogs come from great, titled, parents....if that makes send.

I also think there is another important piece to the puzzle and that's the knowledge of the buyer. I have seen plenty of working dogs and sports dogs that are nervy and not very solid, but are being titled, worked, and bred. I also know trainers that were paid to title dogs for breeders that should never be bred, but it was their job, so they titled the dog and moved on. As a buyer I would take a knowledgeable friend with me to actually see the parents in action. A title on a website is not enough, for me. i would want to actually watch a video of the dog trialing, or better yet, see the dogs in person, working and training.
 

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I also want to add, if I personally know the breeder, have seen them work dogs, and trust their instinct and judgement I may get a pup from a breeder who hasn't yet titled the parents. However, I can only think of one person I know that I would do that with. And even then, I would still be hesitant. But I would have to know them very well and I would want them to be knowledgeable in working dogs and have titled or put working dogs into careers.
 

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Like all absolutes, there is always an exception here and there....

I have done and have had done AKC and IPO/Sch titles on my dogs....I bred one female without a title, and titled her afterwards...she produced the most consistant litter I have had....almost exactly what I was looking for with the exception of depth of pigment....

I have a 4 year old female that I have done alot of work with, she lives with friends who I could not deny her to at 8 months old due to personal circumstances, even though I own her and plan to breed her...they meant well, but did not follow with keeping up training, I had a disabling car accident, and she NEEDS to be bred because of her age....she has been worked by several well respected helpers...on various fields, she is show rated and hip/elbow certifed....I will breed her without titles and still hope to do some down the road as I recently started with a new helper who is very good....

You have to look at the total picture....a breeder consistantly breeding titled dogs who does have the experience to make an exception, or a breeder importing all the breeding stock which changes on a rotating basis, or a breeder whose breeding stock is bought as pups from titled parents but never does anything but breed or a breeder using homegrown stock with no credentials in sight for generations....

The breeder making the exception with an untitled dog may be very preferable to that just importing, breeding and reselling and importing another batch of females


So there are several scenerios where I would consider the exceptional untitled female preferable!

Lee
Agree, thanks for putting that more eloquently than I. Lol
 

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You have to look at the total picture....a breeder consistantly breeding titled dogs who does have the experience to make an exception, or a breeder importing all the breeding stock which changes on a rotating basis, or a breeder whose breeding stock is bought as pups from titled parents but never does anything but breed or a breeder using homegrown stock with no credentials in sight for generations....

The breeder making the exception with an untitled dog may be very preferable to that just importing, breeding and reselling and importing another batch of females
Excellent points Lee. Agree.
 

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Personally I like to see dogs who are working in the "real world", not just titles. A dog can be managed and get titles and not have a great temperament, so I don't feel titles alone necessarily tell that much about the dogs.
 

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I agree with all the above posters:)

If I have something specific in mind,(and I usually do) I'm going to a breeder who has been there, done that with their dogs. I wouldn't have a problem IF that breeder was knowledgeable (like Lee for example or Lisa who posted here), knew what they were producing to go with an untitled dog.

It would depend more on the knowledge of the breeder than the dog itself, because with that knowledge, they would know far better than I , what to expect and I would rely on their knowledge .

Titles aren't the be all end all for me, but I know what I want. If I am looking at titles I'm usually looking at dogs that tend to have working type titles .
 

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I think I said this in one of the other threads, but what the heck, I'm tired of working on book revisions and don't mind repeating myself (although the rest of you guys might). ;)

As a puppy buyer, I like to see performance titles on both the dam/sire and the other dogs, if any, in the breeder's program. Ideally, those will be fairly advanced titles (at least some dogs in the program will have something beyond BH/CD/RN), they'll be in a variety of different sports, and there'll be some indication that the breeder is continuing to work and trial dogs up to the present day, rather than resting on past laurels.

If there's a "brag page" or something similar indicating that puppies out of that breeding program are accomplishing things in their new homes, that's a great bonus, although if the breeder's prior litters are still young then its absence is no big deal. It's just nice to see if it's there.

Conformation titles don't mean a whole lot to me. It's just not a priority in what I personally want out of a dog. It's great if they're there, but I don't much care if they aren't.

I don't have the knowledge to evaluate bloodlines and pedigrees. It's not possible for me to look at a pair of dogs and figure out how their progeny are likely to come out. Because I have zero experience or expertise in analyzing bloodlines, I have to use titles as a way of gauging how serious a breeder is and how well they know their dogs.

Additionally, I am downright lousy at evaluating puppies for potential. I can spot really huge, glaring temperamental flaws, but I wouldn't know where to begin telling a Schutzhund prospect from an agility prospect. I need to be able to rely on the breeder to do that for me. Proof that they've worked a bunch of dogs for a long time, ideally in a bunch of different venues, is a strong indicator that a breeder has the ability to do that.

So... I look at the breeder's overall program. It doesn't bother me if one dog is being bred with novice or no titles, as long as I can see proof elsewhere in the program that the breeder has worked other dogs to high levels and knows their stuff, and can explain to me why an exception is being made in that one case.

But personally, yes, I do need to see handler/owner trained and titled dogs somewhere in the lot if I'm going to seriously consider that breeder.
 

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Titles are great, but more important to me is the dogs personality. I have no need for a vicious dog, I want a balanced dog.
 

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No one has a need for a vicious dog. That is why we work our dogs, test our dogs and title them.
 

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Unfortunately there are people who do breed with dogs who produce weak nerves and temperament....they are people who say there is only 1 or 2 working prospects in a litter and the rest are "pets"....and sell them as such...

One thing I find is very telling about a breeder's goals is that by studying the dogs they have and breed, you should find a "family" connection in the bloodlines....that there is a discernible program in place. That breeding females should be connected to each other through generations and that there is a pattern in the litters produced....

there are a few people here - Lisa Clark, Chris Wild, Chris Kemper and myself whose programs are obvious....generations of dogs who are related, mothers and daughters....even bringing in new dogs, there will be a connection (for example, my Panther - Zibera alten Wingertshaus - is a granddaughter of Xito, Csabre's sire, and is also free of Mink and Fero) so she fits into my program....she was bought for expressly using to line breed on Xito with a Csabre son down the road.

When you see a breeder with lots of imported females, producing litters nearly every heat, and producing 100s of puppies - research and see what is actually being titled - IPO, Agility, Flyball, Obedience.....when there are hundreds of pups produced, and only a few dozen doing this....chances are the breeder is more concerned with cash flow than quality and placement....when you can find that most litters the breeder has produced is producing dogs with credentials - IPO, SAR, LE, Agility etc....then if they use an occasional non titled dog, chances are they will be able to explain their reasoning and what that pair brings to the table.

Numbers do not lie....look at the big picture....

Lee
 

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If that was directed towards me I am not looking for a GSD...I wonder sometimes though why some breeders spend so much time saying look at me I am good-I don't breed just pets yet when it suits their agenda they breed pets...and they title their dogs so they are more knowledgeable and therefore better breeders...yet when it suits them they breed without titles-but the other breeder who does that is bad...personally I think that is hypocritical
 

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I wonder sometimes though why some breeders spend so much time saying look at me I am good-I don't breed just pets yet when it suits their agenda they breed pets...and they title their dogs so they are more knowledgeable and therefore better breeders...yet when it suits them they breed without titles-but the other breeder who does that is bad...personally I think that is hypocritical
I think the posts in this thread have done a pretty good job of explaining the distinctions.

Again, I'm not a breeder; I can only talk about things from the puppy buyer's point of view. But to me, there's a HUGE difference between (purely hypothetical) Breeder A, who has titled half a dozen dogs to championships and advanced titles in three different sports, and who's placed 10 puppies in performance/working homes where they too are achieving titles/certifications, and (also purely hypothetical) Breeder B, who has never titled a dog beyond one CGC out of four dogs in the breeding program and whose puppies have no track record in work or sport.

If Breeder A chooses to breed Untitled Dog X because she thinks that dog has a whole lot of potential, comes from good bloodlines, and just hasn't been titled because of an injury that temporarily sidelined the dog's sport career for eight months, that to me would be a whole different thing from Breeder B choosing to breed Untitled Dog Y because "eh, who needs titles, they don't really prove anything anyway."

I might buy a puppy out of Untitled Dog X. I wouldn't even think about Untitled Dog Y.
 

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As a Buyer, I look for the breeder's overall stock. A perfect example is the Breeder I chose, I see her dogs doing herding work, schutzhund, other sports and some are happily settled as pets.

I wasn't sure what was I going to do with my puppy, I decided to do PSA and he did fine being a showline and all ;) albeit briefly but still, he did the job I set him out to do, he got his pdc (yeah!).

He is confident yet friendly. I have had no problem with him going to new places, meeting new people/dogs/kids. He is a very neutral calm dog, just what I envisioned my GSD should be.
 

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Odin24 what has not been mentioned is the German standard for breeding dogs, the breed survey. A system has been in place since the conception of the German Shepherd Dog and is still with us today. If you want to breed a pair of dogs you have to bring them first to a Koermeister who scrutinizes every aspect of the dog, it's temperament, it's structure, every tooth has to be in place, it's working ability, it's structure in motion. Before the dog is brought to this judge it has to first have a show tittle, a working tittle, pass a 12 mile endurance test if it does not have a herding tittle, have passing hip and elbow certifications, have it's DNA tested to make sure there are no out crosses. Only after passing all this are each parent given a breed survey lasting two years before the two years is up the dog has to be brought to a Koermeister and has to pass another breed survey to be given a lifetime breed survey. Dogs that go through this have the tittle designation KKL after their name. This system is in place here in the US and is open to dogs of every line, both working and show. Schutzhund now called IPO was developed as part of this system meant to test the breed worthiness and to ensure that the basic abilities would be passed on to the offspring. The breeders that go through this are having an objective third party certifying their dogs and if their dogs do not measure up to every one of these standards they do not use them in their breeding programs. If a breeder does not do this because it is too hard you have to be the judge whether they know what they are doing. They breed survey system does not guarantee the breeder knows what they are doing. It is almost necessary for the breeder to also be a trainer so as to know the temperament that they are creating and to give guidance to those that buy their puppies. Backyard breeders will also have a continuous line of same parentage because it is easy and they are nostalgic and can not objectively evaluate their dogs. New blood should be a part of every good breeding program. The vast majority of buyers are for pets and a breeder should not be punished for producing dogs that can be pets as well as for other purposes. Not every breeder sees the need to put the titles earned by their clients on their website.
 

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honestly I don't recall seeing any breeder here who has ever said "look at me I am good" nor have I ever seen one say "I don't breed pets".

I will say it again, while I do "like" to see titled dogs, it's not the be all end all for me.

For example, if I were going to someone like Lee, (and others just using her hope she doesn't mind:) tho I only know her from this forum, for years I might add, and see / read her accomplishments and the wealth of knowledge she imparts here , I would have no problem taking a puppy out of untitled parents from her. I would "trust" her judgement. There are many other breeders here that I would do the same.

Why would I pass up the above and go for someone I know 'nada' about, except that they breed dogs? Or someone who,,as was said, imports over and over, breeds indiscriminately just to make a buck?

Probably doesn't make sense, but it rather does to me:)
 
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